ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

The Speccy's spritely young offspring. Discuss everything from FPGA to ZX
richl
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by richl »

Obviously you know I am not someone who ever defended the Vega+ campaign (quite the contrary) but there are some fundamental differences between the two campaigns and they really can't be compared as like for like.

As far as I'm concerned, to even say that they're both behind schedule would be incorrect as this would imply both intended to deliver. One has constantly lied and delivered virtually b*gger all (and will never produce the actual product as promised). The other has delivered hardware that met the announced specs to one set of people and is behind with its obligations to produce a boxed version to another set of people (myself included) due to them seemingly wanting to do the right thing by backers and get the case spot on and not looking like some amateur 3D printed blob.

At least one person in the Vega+ campaign has a history of taking money off people and then not delivering on what they promised. It's basically their M.O. I already knew about them before the campaign was started as they cropped up in the press before. Others involved also don't have good form at delivering on their promises either. I don't know all the people on the Next campaign but the ones I do know have got a good track record of delivering quality products. The detail in the updates (even if they're late) shows a real genuine passion for the project, something that was completely lacking in the Vega+ one once Paul Andrews and Chris Smith left.

I've also backed a lot of Kickstarter campaigns, several of which have fallen behind schedule. One was about 18 months late due to problems with rights issues and the guy involved was pretty rubbish at keeping everyone in the loop so people were understandably getting worried/angry. However, his track record at delivering on other projects was exceptional so I didn't panic and the project was eventually delivered to everyone, albeit a lot later than planned. I'm not a gambler and wouldn't throw money at anything I thought was unlikely to ever see the light of day.

I can understand the "once bitten, twice shy" logic but without wishing to keep on repeating the same thing over and over: the two campaigns are totally different. TOTALLY. One was very amateur and maybe in time will even be proven to have been fraudulent, the other is neither of these things. I wasn't a troll for dismissing the Vega+ as nothing but a crock and I'm not a mug for still having faith in the Next team. I don't blindly believe in ANYTHING but I am pretty good at knowing when I should start to get worried about something and I'm not losing any sleep over the Next campaign at the moment. If we're still having the same conversation 6 months down the line then yeah, maybe I'll change my tune but why panic for the sake of it? ;)
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by beanz »

Pegaz wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:51 am You right of course, but as you can see, history is repeated.
The very same people, who bitterly defended the Vega+ project until his failure, now do the same thing with Next here, with the same "arguments".
Not even close to being the same...that's laughable.

I have had my next for a year...updates are plentiful, the 3000+ boards are already made, the next is the board, not the fancy case...the case is the hold up....worst case (no pun intended)...you'd get a board..re: the spectrum next.

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cha05e90
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by cha05e90 »

Pegaz wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:07 am I didnt point to you in my previous post... how could you possibly conclude something like this after ten days on sc?
Unless, if you dont reveal to us, what is your original wos nickname...
About the rest... Ralf has made some good points, I dont have anything to add to that...
Sorry, I did not take anything personal at all. And of course there's nothing really wrong with Ralfs post - nevertheless: It doesn't have to be that way. And I'm still convinced that the projects aren't really comparable in many regards. So I'm more with Mark or richl here...

Maybe I had the naive hope that coming from a more or less blood stained community (AMIGA!) into a more calm and reasonable environment in the ZX Spectrum scene...:-) This was before I read deeper and deeper into the past WoS or the Vega+ debacles... :o
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PeterJ
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by PeterJ »

The Spectrum community has had it's fair share of disappointments with crowd funding. I'm a backer of the Vega+ and the Next.

As others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.

At least the Next team are still doing believable updates which is good. I'm happy to wait, because there is nothing we can do to speed it along. I figure we just have to leave them to get on with it.

I don't understand these people who seem to spend significant periods of their limited time on this earth thinking up new Twitter handles so the can moan about the Vega and add to the thousands of posts on the campaign page. I have an interest in both projects and follow them in a general sense, but there is a time when you need to move on. We all get done over at some point in our lives.

PS. I had Woolworths shares and also lost shed loads during the house price crash.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Bizzley »

PeterJ wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:23 pmAs others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.
According to Kickstarter themselves 9% of projects that are funded and have succesfully created a product (my emphasis) fail to supply that product to their backers. "Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time." - Professor Ethan Mollick (2015). It's not clear what the Kickstarter figures are for projects that fail to produce a product at all in the first place.

Indiegogo don't supply completion figures. You can either assume that it's pretty close to the Kickstarter figures for them as well or, if you're cynical, because they don't insist on a working prototype before starting a project that it's higher.
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1024MAK
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by 1024MAK »

@Bizzley so are you a backer of either the ZX Spectrum Next or of the Vega+?

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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Ralf »

As others have said crowdfunding is a risk and you do have to accept that you are not guaranteed anything. It's just the way it works. 99% of the time it works fine. Just sad that the 1% happened to us.
I would guess it's closer to about 30%, not 1%

Personally I backed once on some local Polish crowdfunding platform a retro-inspired computer game. They hoped to do it in one year, it's 4 years already and there is still nothing with little hope for a change. I bit the bullet,accepted my loss and don't whine in internet about it ;) But also learnt to be cautious.

My opinion is that people behind crowdunding projects are often enthusiasts good at their passion (programming, soldering, designing) but just as often are lame at "making business". It they were good with business, they would be able to secure money for their project in traditional way (like taking a credit at bank) and not beg for money through crowdfunding. And somehow I feel that with a bank credit which you have to pay or you're kicked out of your flat people become more efficient and less careless ;)

In case of my game it was outsource programmers giving up. The creators hired some young guys for some tasks (hiring experienced programmers was probably out of reach) and after some time it turned out that the task was too difficult for them so they quit. It repeated 3 times so we may say the creators lacked recruiting skills, they couldn't tell a guy who will finish the job from a guy who will fail. Unfortunately they learnt nothing from the failures.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Bizzley »

1024MAK wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:15 pm @Bizzley so are you a backer of either the ZX Spectrum Next or of the Vega+?
Mark
I'm a Spectrum Next backer, backer No. 3034, standard £175+£10 boxed version. I wasn't originally going to back it since I have no real need for a Spectrum with all the versions I have in the attic but got involved in trying to create a dirt-cheap method to link a Next development board to a PC\Mac with one of the software developers and thought it might be fun to develop a game for it. I wrote some software tools for it back in June 2017 and then they started adding all sorts of things (I'm not even sure if the SID chip is in there or not now!) and due to that and the delay in delivering the boxed version I slowly lost interest and moved on to something else.

As to the Vega+, no I didn't back that, it was obvious to me right from the start that there was something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing.
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PeterJ
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by PeterJ »

My percentages were maybe rather out! I suppose I was basing on my success with other projects. The sentiments of my post still stand though.
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beanz
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by beanz »

Bizzley wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:55 pm

As to the Vega+, no I didn't back that, it was obvious to me right from the start that there was something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing.
Same, though the fundamental thing I couldn't get my head around was the point of a mobile speccy device when there are already so many choices around and have been for years...105 quid just to have the Sinclair logo on it seemed a bit silly.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by 4thRock »

I think the problem with these projects is undefined scope and lack of realism.
It would be much easier to create a 200% accurate emulator and bundle it with a spectrum styled computer keyboard and joypad.
And perhaps much cheaper and with less risk for all.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by PeterJ »

I backed the ZX-Uno and that turned out to be spot on and got delivered to schedule. I still use it regularly for ULAplus games.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Hernan »

PeterJ wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:01 pm I backed the ZX-Uno and that turned out to be spot on and got delivered to schedule. I still use it regularly for ULAplus games.
The ZX-Uno is AWESOME. The team spent almost 4 years developing it and then crowdfunded it to make a production run. Also, it's really open source, so anyone can use the designs and code and make its own. And has some unique features like the PZX player or the "Radastanian" video mode (a very low res but multicolor and color-clash free mode).
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by DarkTrancer »

I backed the next and received my "just the board" on time, its excellent piece of hardware and have spent many an hour playing old games and even learning the new nextos and all the new additions.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Hernan wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:58 am The only thing that disappointed me is the lack of ULAplus, and only from "political" issues. Also, it's supposedly fully open source, but when the sources were released a couple of months ago... the VHDL code of the FPGA core is mysteriously missing. And the lack of additional cores, that big FPGA it's completly under-utilized.
The VHDL will be made public and is fully intended to be made open source. It's being held back until the cased Nexts are delivered so that Next-alikes don't start appearing on other fpga boards before the backers get their machines. It would be possible to run a reduced version of the next on the uno, for example, and such a thing might appear within a few days of the source being made public, although being a reduced implementation means maybe not much sw will run on it. The uno was in fact used by some developers early on for next sw development. The dos, which I think has the same size fpga, maybe could run the full next machine with unsupported features subtracted (hdmi, esp wifi, maybe memory size, etc - I'm not too familiar with the dos spec).

In the meantime, the tbblue repository is reasonably up to date and public. It contains most other things. The fpga configuration, stored in "TBBLUE.TBU" is version 2.00.11 there, but from what I understand the version being put into the cased nexts is 2.00.18 so it's a bit behind there. If you have a board, copying the repo to your sd card is more up-to-date than the last update at specnext.com which had 2.00.00 in it.

The big fpga is not being under-utilized as the zx next core fills most of it. But there is room for 30 more cores in the flash. So you will see a situation as on the uno where you can store another 30 different machines and boot into those. I would expect that some or all of the uno cores will be made available for the next at some point, and since the next fpga is bigger, I'd expect enhanced cores to appear that make use of the extra gates.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Ralf wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:44 pm My opinion is that people behind crowdunding projects are often enthusiasts good at their passion (programming, soldering, designing) but just as often are lame at "making business". It they were good with business, they would be able to secure money for their project in traditional way (like taking a credit at bank) and not beg for money through crowdfunding. And somehow I feel that with a bank credit which you have to pay or you're kicked out of your flat people become more efficient and less careless ;)
3000 machines is not a business; it's a hobby. If you're making 100,000 - 1 million you can start thinking it's a business. Without a crowdfunding something like the zx next would not be possible unless driven by a benevolent millionaire.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by PeterJ »

4thRock wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:22 pm I think the problem with these projects is undefined scope and lack of realism.
It would be much easier to create a 200% accurate emulator and bundle it with a spectrum styled computer keyboard and joypad.
And perhaps much cheaper and with less risk for all.
I agree. ARM based boards like the Raspberry Pi Zero which retail for $5 could be put into something equivalent to the recreated Spectrum. You could the run Fuse or ZesarUX. You could also build a portable version like the Nintendo DSi

I'm not underestimating the amount of planning and other work needed, but at least you wouldn't.need to create the electronics from scratch As long as backers knew from the start that it was based on a Pi they could make an informed decision.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by 1024MAK »

Part of the reason I backed the ZX Spectrum Next, is the new case and keyboard. Having obtained various third party keyboards over the years for use with ZX81s and ZX Spectrums, and having various other microcomputers from the 1980s and 1990s, I just cannot scratch the itch of wanting to have a good looking ZX Spectrum with a good keyboard. Ironically, by the time Amstrad introduced the +2, I was looking at buying an Atari STFM (and then did go down that route).

I’m sorry, but I have never been a fan of Sinclair’s existing ZX Spectrum+ / ZX Spectrum 128k / QL keyboard’s (although the QL keyboard is very slightly better than the one on the Spectrum). At least with the rubber key, you knew that the keyboard would be, err, rubbery!

Mind, it’s still a gamble (for me) if the keyboard on the ZX Spectrum Next will meet with my expectations....

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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Pegaz »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:00 am
4thRock wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:22 pm I think the problem with these projects is undefined scope and lack of realism.
It would be much easier to create a 200% accurate emulator and bundle it with a spectrum styled computer keyboard and joypad.
And perhaps much cheaper and with less risk for all.
I agree. ARM based boards like the Raspberry Pi Zero which retail for $5 could be put into something equivalent to the recreated Spectrum. You could the run Fuse or ZesarUX. You could also build a portable version like the Nintendo DSi

I'm not underestimating the amount of planning and other work needed, but at least you wouldn't.need to create the electronics from scratch As long as backers knew from the start that it was based on a Pi they could make an informed decision.
True.
Even better, with the new Pi3 A+, you can get full speed Next emulation for just $25.
1024MAK wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:17 pm Part of the reason I backed the ZX Spectrum Next, is the new case and keyboard. Having obtained various third party keyboards over the years for use with ZX81s and ZX Spectrums, and having various other microcomputers from the 1980s and 1990s, I just cannot scratch the itch of wanting to have a good looking ZX Spectrum with a good keyboard. Ironically, by the time Amstrad introduced the +2, I was looking at buying an Atari STFM (and then did go down that route).

I’m sorry, but I have never been a fan of Sinclair’s existing ZX Spectrum+ / ZX Spectrum 128k / QL keyboard’s (although the QL keyboard is very slightly better than the one on the Spectrum). At least with the rubber key, you knew that the keyboard would be, err, rubbery!

Mind, it’s still a gamble (for me) if the keyboard on the ZX Spectrum Next will meet with my expectations....

Mark
You right, of course.
Still, some forum experts believe that "Next" is just a board.
It's a shame they havent informed Henrique and team, that they have no need to bother with the fancy case and keyboard...
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Bizzley »

1024MAK wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:17 pmMind, it’s still a gamble (for me) if the keyboard on the ZX Spectrum Next will meet with my expectations....
Like you I made use of a fair amount of third-party Spectrum keyboards, some good, some bad, and companies like DK'Tronics didn't seem to have a problem designing and knocking them out to us on a fairly regular basis. While I have to say that they wouldn't have won any awards for innovative industrial design they usually did work and were pretty reliable on the whole. I would break more joysticks than keyboards and if I did have to get a new one it was probably because of the print on the keys rubbing off rather than mechanical failure.

I'll believe in the keyboard after I've seen someone playing one of the sports button-basher games like Daley Thompson's Decathlon for an hour on it. :)
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Hernan »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:11 am It would be possible to run a reduced version of the next on the uno, for example, and such a thing might appear within a few days of the source being made public
This already exists, but with an older version when both systems shared the same FPGA and it was called TBBlue.

http://www.zxuno.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=491
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Hernan wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:31 pm This already exists, but with an older version when both systems shared the same FPGA and it was called TBBlue.
http://www.zxuno.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=491
That was a very early version which wasn't much more than a standard zx spectrum implementation :) The next cores the early devs were using on their unos were real zx next cores with features removed to fit.

TBBLUE is printed on the zx next PCBs.. It's kind of hard to define what TBBLUE means but it seems to me that it is a vhdl shell with a library of modules which can be used to synthesize a variety of machines. The zx next repository only contains modules for z80 machines and the zx next features. Victor has another core "the multicore" that contains implementations for a lot of other machines but is still TBBLUE.
I agree. ARM based boards like the Raspberry Pi Zero which retail for $5 could be put into something equivalent to the recreated Spectrum. You could the run Fuse or ZesarUX. You could also build a portable version like the Nintendo DSi
At the moment there are two zx next emulators but neither one is a complete emulation.

Zesarux is closest to a full emulation (and aims to be eventually) and it can be compiled for raspberry pi but even on my 2.2GHz i7 laptop it only achieves ~10% emulation speed under windows. Part of it could be that zesarux is primarily aimed at linux machines so there are inefficiencies in the windows build but this should be a strong indicator that there's no chance full emulation speed will be possible on the pis using zesarux as things are now. If there's somebody here actually running zesarux on the pis, maybe they could comment.

Cspect is the other one and has recently been ported to C# so can also target linux now; formerly it was windows only. It is not a full emulation and never will be - it's really emulating a 128k spectrum with most of the display hardware on the next and is not timing accurate. It's good for game dev (it's intended purpose) but it cannot run the operating system nor field much more than basic disk io among the io available on the next. The author did try compiling it and running on a pi zero but it stuttered and did not run full speed. Maybe on faster pis it could run full speed.

Eventually I am sure there could be reasonable emulation on the newest pis. It's also worth mentioning the price for fpga boards are rapidly coming down to the same levels. The main price contributor to the next is not the board but other things like the case.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by PQR »

I am a Next backer, no. 2,087, and I am not worried.
Contrary to some other people here, to me the Next’s appeal is all about the case.

The fact that the Next case has been designed by the same man who designed the original Sinclair hardware originally caught my attention. Now that this project has (sadly) become Rick Dickinson’s swan song makes it even more special to me.

Having something produced in a small run of only a couple of thousand units is not normal in the world of manufacturing.
Delays and setbacks were to be expected, and I think the team handles them well.
There is also help from Rick Dickinson’s team where it concerns overseeing manufacturing and QA. These are not amateurs.

Yes, it is a pity that the project is delayed.
But I have a strong impression that the team is able to deliver the case, similar to how they have already delivered the board.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

PeterJ wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:00 am I'm not underestimating the amount of planning and other work needed, but at least you wouldn't.need to create the electronics from scratch As long as backers knew from the start that it was based on a Pi they could make an informed decision.
The risk in the project is in the physical case.

The kickstarter unlocked goals did require a new pcb but that was a minor risk. The fpga hw was already done. Even though the core hw continues to evolve it was never a risk because of the nature of fpgas. The end user can easily update the core hw himself which means there is no point where the core is frozen and can never be changed.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by toot_toot »

Just re/reading the end of the last update, I think some of this text highlights some of the concerns some backers have
We’ve been accelerating the keyboard production as of late, now that most adjustments to the keys have been done. Myself, Mike and Phil are in daily contact with the keyboard partner, pushing the production along as fast as we can. Now it’s getting the keys printed, the T2 keyboard assembled and fitted in the case, and full production.

Most people working on the project today are original backers who volunteered their time to help out. We’re as frustrated as any backer with the delay, and as eager to get our Nexts as everyone else. I, for one, can’t wait to have my Next sitting on my desk playing Baggers in Space… We will continue to push and get it out as soon as we can, rest assured.
After a lengthy update with all of the “to-do” project items, the update finishes with a vague “we will get it out as soon as we can”. Not any indication of timescales or what the next milestones in that list are, just “it will be ready when it’s ready”. Except er’ve Been given several updates telling us we’re in the final push. But here we are in November with no idea when it’s going to be ready - but the concerning thing is that the project organisers don’t even seem to know when it is going to be ready.

The other worry is just how much money they’re now spending on the keyboard. Every time they’re making a tweak, that costs money. The last thing we want to hear is that they’ve run out of money trying to make something that’s already freely available from the likes of ZX Renew.

Not hitting timescales is a concern, but then even simple promises like a new update every two weeks, because the project is now well past the January deadline, are being regularly broken. The last update was due last sunday. But nothing. Not even something like “there’s nothing to update” or “we’re really busy but we’ll give another update in a few days time”. Now that it’s even easier than ever to give short updates via Facebook or Twitter, It’s very frustrating, even more so when the team seem to find time going to various retro gaming events taking a ZX Renew cased Next and showing off a handheld Next prototype. Hey, where’s our updates on the cased Next that raised over £600k in funds??!?!?

While the updates are certainly better than the likes of the Vega+, the team are really missing how to keep the backers on their side with regular (as promised) updates with at least some sort of timescale indications. The longer this goes on, the more annoyed, frustrated and angry the backers are going to get.
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