ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by beanz »

A lack of timely updates isn't a concern to me...sure I'd like them but it doesn't cause me any concern or worry...maybe they are holding back the next update as a "Christmas gift"..re: a shipping announcement...updates don't guarantee anything anyway...Vega+ updated people with the likes of "In production!" "Shipping in 2 weeks!" "units are being shipped!" horsepoop multiple times. :lol:
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:52 pm Vega+ updated people with the likes of "In production!" "Shipping in 2 weeks!" "units are being shipped!" horsepoop multiple times. :lol:
The Spectrum Next has had similar "horsepoop" announcements about shipping - "We’ll have our Nexts this Summer!" - I just think they learned from the Vega+ debacle not to give absolutes but go with fuzzy instead hence "as soon as we can". If you don't want to give a definite date you can always go with a negative..."don't expect delivery this side of Winter"....that kind of thing. You are not committing to anything but at least you are letting people know not to keep asking if the postman has a parcel for them today.

BTW I really hope the Superbacker who posted in the Kickstarter comments for the last update was being ironic when they said they were looking forward to a great year of updates before getting the Next [in 2020]. But the more you read the post more you get the feeling they weren't.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:58 pm
beanz wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:52 pm Vega+ updated people with the likes of "In production!" "Shipping in 2 weeks!" "units are being shipped!" horsepoop multiple times. :lol:
The Spectrum Next has had similar "horsepoop" announcements about shipping - "We’ll have our Nexts this Summer!" -
Yeah again not even close to the same thing...Vega+ team made a dozen such announcements with nothing tangible to support it.
Bizzley wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:58 pm If you don't want to give a definite date you can always go with a negative..."don't expect delivery this side of Winter"....that kind of thing. You are not committing to anything but at least you are letting people know not to keep asking if the postman has a parcel for them today.
Wouldn't a better lesson be to make no announcements in either direction until you are 100% sure?...I think so. I'm sure we'll be the first to know when there is something to know...
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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So latest update said Q2 of 2019 by the latest but they'd try and ship sooner.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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So do they mean the UK Calendar Q2 - April to June, or the UK Fiscal Q2 - July to September? No I'm not being negative, just pointing out how you can make things mean whatever you want :)

But at least they've come out with a generalised date which is what I was looking for all along, OK it's a 'no later than 28 weeks from today' date but it's 100% better than the 'fingers crossed we hope it'll be soon' type announcements they've been coming up with.

I did find the invitation in the update to head over to a website so I can buy games to download and play on the Next right now a tad....thoughtless....perhaps. Just what exactly am I meant to play them on?
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pmJust what exactly am I meant to play them on?
Well, there are about 400 boards out there after all. Perhaps not much use to you, but useful for the people that has a board.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Sokurah wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:49 pm Well, there are about 400 boards out there after all.
I thought it was 130-140, give or take a few, as that's the number that backed the "Just The Board" option on Kickstarter. Do you know where the extra 250+ came from as I didn't think they were selling the board outside of Kickstarter?
Sokurah wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:49 pmPerhaps not much use to you
No you're right, not much use to me nor the 2700+ others waiting for a boxed Next.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:56 pm I thought it was 130-140, give or take a few, as that's the number that backed the "Just The Board" option on Kickstarter. Do you know where the extra 250+ came from as I didn't think they were selling the board outside of Kickstarter?
After the kickstarter closed, they made it possible for people to get a unit via the shop until the parts order deadline. About 400 boards in total were shipped.

That person has been selling Next sw for months and mentioning his site when video of one of his games was used in the update only makes sense. It sounds a lot like you're looking for a reason to be miffed.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pm I did find the invitation in the update to head over to a website so I can buy games to download and play on the Next right now a tad....thoughtless....perhaps. Just what exactly am I meant to play them on?
I've been playing the three Next games I've bought on the CSpect emulator (Windows, v1.18 and above recommended): http://dailly.blogspot.com/2018/09/cspect-118.html . Couldn't wait until I got my cased Next, but I'll play them on that when it arrives obv.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:29 am It sounds a lot like you're looking for a reason to be miffed.
It was a genuine question. Not being on Facebook I have no access to the closed Next FB group(s) and trying unsuccessfully (twice) to join the Specnext Forums without a confirmation email means I've probably missed some of the answers to the questions I ask. But thank you for clearing that up for me.

There used to be an old saying, "if you're not for us then you're agin us" which seem to have become the prevailing attitude nowadays to most things where opinions are mixed, especially online. I don't think it was the Vega+ debacle that was the first to coin the nasty word "hater" for those who weren't 100% behind something (and made that doubt public) and Joefish has recently posted in a Thread on here about what can happen if you don't toe the proverbial company line in some circumstances. Fortunately the Next campaign has (and likely never will) fall to to that basement level of spite and childishness, the product is coming, it now has a "no later than" date and confidence is high. But it is OK to hold and voice a different opinion towards some some aspects of the campaign, isn't it, or have I missed something else?
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Sokurah wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:49 pm
Bizzley wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 pmJust what exactly am I meant to play them on?
Well, there are about 400 boards out there after all. Perhaps not much use to you, but useful for the people that has a board.
Yep, 400 and change. The numbers were not fully reflected on the campaign. It only reflected those who specifically bought the board, not those who purchased a full next and then added the difference for a board too (like I did). It was mentioned back then there were 400+ boards made and shipped.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:44 am
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:29 am It sounds a lot like you're looking for a reason to be miffed.
But it is OK to hold and voice a different opinion towards some some aspects of the campaign, isn't it, or have I missed something else?
Nope that's fine...but it might come across as an "I told you so" attitude rather than being constructive. I knew for example DURING the campaign they were never going to meet that shipping estimate...it was laughably naive (I work for an OEM and am fully aware how long it takes to bring new products to market etc). As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:30 pm As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
Have you (or anyone else reading this) had any experience with plastic cases and keyboards, it would be interesting to know whether the estimated 18 months (max) it's taking to put the ready-built PCBs into a plastic box is par for the course or not.

The only experience similar to this I've had was when we were putting the old Spectrum Echosoft keyboard deal together. I know it took about half a dozen friends and family less than a month to put almost 10,000 units together from pre-assembled components but there were no instruction manuals, duplicated cassettes, inlays, interface PCBs cables or even plastic cases to put the PCBs in at the start of that month, they took about a week to source and then were delivered on a rolling basis. Dixons didn't want to hear that in a year's time everything would be better looking and cooler and the software would have more functions, they had told people they could have it for Christmas and that meant delivery to them in 4 weeks time. Of course corners were cut - I had to hack the software so I know they were! - but a date had been agreed and we did whatever we had to do to make sure they were delivered on time and of an acceptable quality.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:05 pm
beanz wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:30 pm As such I didn't expect delivery of the finished unit anytime soon and that's why I got a board too...boards are easy to make and deliver etc.
Have you (or anyone else reading this) had any experience with plastic cases and keyboards, it would be interesting to know whether the estimated 18 months (max) it's taking to put the ready-built PCBs into a plastic box is par for the course or not.

The only experience similar to this I've had was when we were putting the old Spectrum Echosoft keyboard deal together. I know it took about half a dozen friends and family less than a month to put almost 10,000 units together from pre-assembled components but there were no instruction manuals, duplicated cassettes, inlays, interface PCBs cables or even plastic cases to put the PCBs in at the start of that month, they took about a week to source and then were delivered on a rolling basis. Dixons didn't want to hear that in a year's time everything would be better looking and cooler and the software would have more functions, they had told people they could have it for Christmas and that meant delivery to them in 4 weeks time. Of course corners were cut - I had to hack the software so I know they were! - but a date had been agreed and we did whatever we had to do to make sure they were delivered on time and of an acceptable quality.
Yes, as I say I work for an OEM manufacturing power conditioning equipment that involves circuit boards, metal chassis, plastic chassis, from design to ordering parts to delivering the finished product etc.

You're simplifying the "ready PCB in a plastic box"...as the spectrum next case isn't a "plastic box". It's about as complicated as it gets as far as creating plastics from scratch goes...and on top of that finding someone willing to do a short run (which 3000+ is) at a reasonable price...aka a price that fits in with the $$ available. Sure you could find someone to do it faster if money was no object...but money is an object when you have a finite amount to work from.

As far as 18 months go it's a little long sure...but then these guys are not professional manufacturers...our products can take 6 months to a year on average from idea to deliverable product...we've been doing it for 30+ years...so 18 months for amateurs isn't bad at all.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Just to clarify, the 18 months I stated was from when the Next was due (Jan 2018) up to the stated maximum of June 30th 2019. The development date for the Next actually runs from May 2017 when the campaign closed making it slightly over an estimated two years. From your experience and what you say I'm beginning to think the vastly understated original delivery date had more to do with amateurs telling the backers what they wanted to hear rather than it being a realistic professional estimation. But that's all done now, we're on the clock and hopefully they will be doing their best to deliver it even before Q2 as they hope.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Bizzley wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:25 pmFrom your experience and what you say I'm beginning to think the vastly understated original delivery date had more to do with amateurs telling the backers what they wanted to hear rather than it being a realistic professional estimation.
Yep...or simply their naivety regarding the whole process.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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And still this drags on. As we now enter Q2 of the year comments by the developers that they will "try to ship it earlier than Q2" have to be placed firmly in the negative column. With the latest update confirming that a test keyboard has yet to be produced that meets expectations the clock is now running down on the promised delivery date of end Q2, June 30th. However, the update does state that a six week allowance was made in the initial date estimation for unforseen problems and that a Q2 delivery is still on the cards so we have 12 weeks to go before we find out how that compares to the "earlier than Q2" hope.

In the Kickstarter comments for this update a Paul Murphy has raised an interesting point, that the reason the keyboard has been delayed a month and is still not acceptable is solely down to the fact that the developers requested four "minor tweaks" to the already working keyboard resulting in delays to allow for retooling and production of (yet another) test unit. That these "minor tweaks" were never part of the original Rick Dickinson design and have been added as an afterthought - with seemingly no idea of the problems they would cause - is at best a case of 'doing it because we can' and at worst ignoring what Mr. Dickinson designed. So the keyboard was working four\five weeks ago and could have gone into production if it had just been left alone, the latest in a long list of delays caused by decisions to place cosmetic changes above practicalities.

Unfortunately Paul Murphy's comments are likely to elicit pretty much the same inults that another poster in the previous update received for the sin of not being 100% behind the project, being called a"Bell End" and a "F*** Knuckle" for daring to doubt. While all backers accept that crowd-funded projects like this are a gamble and that dates can shift because of unforseen problems you do have to worry when those delays are totally forseeable yet are still being implemented.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Pegaz »

I dont know if it will accomplish goal at the end of Q2 deadlines, but I really hope so.
What worries me a little bit, is the obedient mentality in most of the comments on next web page, who blindly support any delay and explanation.
I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
I also wonder if the packaging and manual production is complete or not?
Or maybe it's time to become a true believer, as well as those who have sworn in Vega+ for years.
Today is the 1st of April, after all...
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Ralf »

Well, welcome to the development hell :evil:

And it's really hard to decide till which moment you should give your support to the developers and since which moment you are entitled to get angry at them and call them losers or scammers.

As for me I really prefer to stay away from these crowdfunding campains, it's healthier.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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Pegaz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:56 pm I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
Seems like if there is those additional costs and responsibilities are on the shipper.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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beanz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:51 pm
Pegaz wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:56 pm I'm wondering for example, if there will be additional postal charges from England to worldwide destinations in case of no-deal Brexit?
Seems like if there is those additional costs and responsibilities are on the shipper.
Seems like if there are additional costs the responsibility is on the shipper.

Fixed.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by AndyC »

One has to hope that the delays (and suggestions) are due to real problems that might have been unforeseen, such as responsiveness or real usability issues. It would be a very sad day indeed if this project also became another Vega+ debacle, and one I'm not entirely sure the scene could survive.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

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AndyC wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:45 pm One has to hope that the delays (and suggestions) are due to real problems that might have been unforeseen, such as responsiveness or real usability issues.
If only that were the case. It's not my opinion that the keyboard was fully working and ready for mass production in February but the developers - "Long story short, this all means that now we’re ready to produce the keyboard, case and ship them over to get the Next assembled and sent to the backers."

But that apparently wasn't good enough since at that time the following "tweaks" were requested, seemingly on a whim:

The Enter key felt heavier to press than the other keys;
Four keys missed the tweak to remove a tiny injection bulge;
The connector ribbons had to be extended a bit and;
The screws inserts should be 3mm rather than 2.5mm


I've added my emphasis to each to try and point out the triviality of the changes requested. I for one could have lived with 2.5mm screws and tiny injection bulges on four keys.

Apparently the knock-on effect of requesting these changes was ignored, naively assuming that these changes would go 'live' in a major production run without first being formally signed off. I don't think this could be called unforseen by any definition of the word.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

Bizzley wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:42 pm I've added my emphasis to each to try and point out the triviality of the changes requested. I for one could have lived with 2.5mm screws and tiny injection bulges on four keys.
This is possibly the one and only time a real case like this can be made for a spectrum. It's better to get the job done right if you can. However the main issue has been key responsiveness. There's no question it can be fixed up but the problem is the zx next project is tiny and is at the bottom of every supplier's to-do list. It can take weeks for a supplier to even look at a reported issue.
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Re: ZX Spectrum Next Discussion

Post by Bizzley »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:27 am It can take weeks for a supplier to even look at a reported issue.
I absolutely agree with that. My POV though is that some of these reported "issues" are entirely down to the choice and hubris of the developers rather than necessary changes in order to turn a non-working product into a working one.

Case(!) in point. Slightly longer case screws and a slightly longer ribbon cable won't make the Next work better, they are there so that people who want to repeatedly open and close the case can do so more than they could before the change. It was always meant to be this way, it was designed to be this way, the original spec lengths were good enough but somebody decided that the delays (and costs!) necessary to redesign, retool and retest to allow for even more openings and closings was more important than actually delivering on time.

I think a Youtube video or two of that finished keyboard, the completed case, those super glossy keys, heck even one of the "almost there" prototypes that have been announced in the last few months would go down a treat. Nothing Hollywood, just a minute or two of footage so those of us who actually paid for it can get a hint or two of what our money has bought (sorry contributed.) Apart from a video from June last year showing the (now outdated and incorrectly coloured) case components that's it, there are more videos of people showing off their custom-created Next cases than there is of the official plastics.
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