+2B RGB output

For experts to discuss very technical stuff and newbies to ask why the Spectrum they bought off ebay doesn't work.
Post Reply
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

+2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

Hi
Just bought a +2B and it was a bit problematic at first but seems okay now and the self test ROM passes the main tests. Problem I am having is with the RGB output it is very dark almost black/negative with no sound, the RF is fine. I brought a new lead and have no reason to suspect it is faulty, I have ordered another one from Ian Priddey to check but I noticed there is a resistor mod for the RGB (680 Ohm or 1k piggyback) that can be done whereas this has not.
I don’t know if this has been modded before as there is some heath robinson fixes on the PCB going to a logic chip below the AY and some underneath following the same path as above.
There is a capacitor on two pins of the Z80 as well, very odd. My old +2B had none of this.
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Morpheus wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:02 pm There is a capacitor on two pins of the Z80 as well, very odd.
That’s a factory mod. Mine has it, too. Your old one probably had it on the bottom side of the logic board.

If you have a good signal via RF, then the problem is likely in the cable. The TEA2000 encoder forms a composite signal from the RGB and brightness signals coming from the gate array. I suspect your TV expects a composite signal, while the +2A can’t generate it (well, it doesn’t have it present on the DIN connector). Instead, it generates a composite sync signal, which can sometimes be interpreted by the TV as a very dark, “almost negative,” as you put it, image.

Unless you can manually force your TV to accept an RGB signal, you’ll have to generate a signal for it to switch to RGB video automatically. For that, you need to feed 1–3V to pin 16 of the SCRAT connector. You have 12V available on pin 2 and 5 of the DIN connector on the Spectrum, but normally, it is fed via a 1K resistor, and combined with the TV’s internal 75Ω resistor they form a voltage divider with an output of just below that which is required by the TV.

The solution is to reduce the resistance on the logic board of your Spectrum (R44) to something like 330–470Ω either by replacing it, or by soldering another resistor in parallel with it. (Yes, 680Ω is a good value. It’ll give you an equivalent resistance of about 400Ω.)

Not sure why you’re not getting any sound, although this might have something to do with your TV being too “smart,” and muting all audio input if it doesn’t receive a proper video signal. However, no factory mods (that I know of) exist for the AY chip, so that might be the culprit.
Last edited by Ast A. Moore on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

Thanks, as always you are the goto man for help. Will change the value of R44 and see what happens.
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by 1024MAK »

Lots of information on the Amstrad versions of the ZX Spectrum here. What particular factory modifications were done depends on which board issue you have, and when it was made.

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

Changed to value of R44 to 470 Ohms and nothing has changed so maybe the cable is the problem as the TV normally switches to RGB itself. Tried it on two Televisions with the same result. So waiting on the new cable arriving to see.
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Out of sheer semi-scientific curiosity (although I’m sure you’ve already tried that), can you manually change the TVs inputs? Sometimes pressing the AV button (or similar) on the remote or the set itself will go through several available options.

Another possibility (albeit extremely rare) is the TV itself might not have an RGB input on one of its SCART connectors (if it has more than one). I even used to have a TV that had a single SCART socket which also didn’t have any RGB signals wired to it. I was very surprised, to say the least.

I personally haven’t dealt with off-the-shelf AV cables for the Spectrum. I made two for myself and a couple more for friends. They’re not difficult to put together, except that fitting the diode/resistor network inside of the male SCART enclosure for the original 128K machine can be a little fiddly.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

My Panasonic TV has two Scart inputs and one is RGB the other switchable composite/svhs I am using the right one and it works fine with my Grey+2, CPC464,CPC6128. When you power them up the channel flicks from AV1 to AV1-RGB and away we go, with this nothing...
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Some gray +2s were configured (via an onboard jumper) at the factory to output video the same way as the original 128K machines. If that’s the case, and you’re using the same cable, then yes, you won’t get any image. The +2A cable is simpler but quite different.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by 1024MAK »

Morpheus wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:58 pm My Panasonic TV has two Scart inputs and one is RGB the other switchable composite/svhs I am using the right one and it works fine with my Grey+2, CPC464,CPC6128. When you power them up the channel flicks from AV1 to AV1-RGB and away we go, with this nothing...
Which specific cable do you have?

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

I bought the +2/+3 cable for this machine. Managed to get the cable working last night by moving the 12v wire to pin 1 ( it was on pin 3 ) there is no sound yet but the audio wire is connected to pin 5 and not 3. I bought this cable from Cool Novelties and it's the first time I have used them. :evil:
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Morpheus wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:34 am I bought the +2/+3 cable for this machine. Managed to get the cable working last night by moving the 12v wire to pin 1 ( it was on pin 3 )
Excellent!

Do you have audio via RF? If you do, then you’ll probably want to make sure pin 3 of the DIN connector is connected to both pin 2 and 6 of the SCART. If not, then it’ll make sense to see whether you’re missing both the sound from the gate array and the AY chip or just the AY.
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by 1024MAK »

Morpheus wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:34 am I bought the +2/+3 cable for this machine. Managed to get the cable working last night by moving the 12v wire to pin 1 ( it was on pin 3 ) there is no sound yet but the audio wire is connected to pin 5 and not 3. I bought this cable from Cool Novelties and it's the first time I have used them. :evil:
I’ve used Cool Novelties for RGB - SCART cables before (can’t remember if I have ever got one for a +2A/+2B/+3 from them though). My most recent cable for them was for a Acorn BBC/Master/Electron.

When you say you moved the 12V wire to pin 1, I presume you mean in the DIN plug.

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
User avatar
Morpheus
Microbot
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm
Location: Hurworth-On-Tees, UK
Contact:

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Morpheus »

Yeah all the pin moves I have talked about are all at the DIN pin. I got the sound working this morning by doing the wire move so the cable works now. My new cable from Retrocomputershack arrived this morning and worked from the get-go. I’m not sure what happened with the other cable maybe someone had a black-out but It’ll do as a spare or if I need to kit bash a cable.
R Tape loading error, 0:1
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Glad you got the entire thing sorted out!
Morpheus wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:45 am I’m not sure what happened with the other cable maybe someone had a black-out
Well, 8-pin male connectors are a little more tedious to solder than your common 5-pin jobbies. Then again, nothing beats the 13-pin DINs for my Roland GR-55 system. Boy, was that a fun time. :D
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by 1024MAK »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:11 pm Glad you got the entire thing sorted out!
Morpheus wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:45 am I’m not sure what happened with the other cable maybe someone had a black-out
Well, 8-pin male connectors are a little more tedious to solder than your common 5-pin jobbies. Then again, nothing beats the 13-pin DINs for my Roland GR-55 system. Boy, was that a fun time. :D
Atari ST’s use a 13 pin DIN for the video output connector, and a larger 14 pin DIN for the external floppy drive port...
But mini DIN are the worst...

Mark
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: +2B RGB output

Post by Ast A. Moore »

1024MAK wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:51 pm Atari ST’s use a 13 pin DIN for the video output connector, and a larger 14 pin DIN for the external floppy drive port...
:shock:
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
Post Reply