HELP WANTED: Derived games

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Einar Saukas
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HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Sometimes authors release updated versions of their own games, with noticeable gameplay differences (not just a different name and new loading screen). Notorious examples are Bride of Frankenstein and Frankenstein Jnr, Sorcery and Sorcery+, Chess and Masterchess, Jet Set Willy II and Jet Set Willy II+.

Traditionally Martijn classified these updated games under different IDs. Perhaps it would make more sense to keep all variants under the same ID, but it's too late for that. These IDs already exist, and I see no point spending time to change everything now. I would rather dedicate my free time adding useful information instead...

Anyway, I don't want to classify these improved games as "mod", because this term implies a new title produced from hacking into someone else's code. When authors released a new game that was basically an improved update of their own previous title, I'm now using the term "derived". For instance, Bride of Frankenstein was derived from Frankenstein Jnr.

However sometimes it's not easy to identify the original game, when they were both released in the same year. Does anybody know which one of these games (listed below) is the original?

Automonopoli or Go to Jail

Dracman or 3D Bat Attack

Blood 'n' Guts or Fantastic Voyage

Spinads or Chopper X-1

Rays or The Yellow Door

Time Zone or Time Switch

Treble Champions or Treble Chance

Wimbledon or Super Brat

Mica Pospravljalkald or Mica Spremacica

Any help is appreciated! :)
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Joefish »

I thought that 'Fantastic Voyage' was the original title but it was recalled and re-issued because it didn't have the rights to the movie. Though the Wikipedia page on Quicksilva says it was the other way round. Maybe a look through magazines of the time for adverts would help?

My guess is 'Wimbledon' came first - looking at the cassette inlay it looks very amateurish, and appears to have been self-published. I would guess the more professional release came later, but needed a name change because of unauthorised use of the title in a tennis game. 'Super Brat' seems a strange alternate title, but was presumably a reference to McEnroe?

The screenshot for 'Go To Jail' still says 'Automonopoli' on its loading screen. Again, I would assume 'Automonopoli' was the original title, but the 'Monopoly' people complained.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Joefish »

OK, 'Fantastic Voyage' got re-releases under that title, so I guess that was the later one - they must have had official license to use the movie title.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Joefish »

Is it safe to assume 'Treble Champions' is the later title, since that got ported to other platforms?
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:54 pm Rays or The Yellow Door
Rays came first. Yellow Door second, in order to fit in with the "Door" series of Tartan games.

I've not played it for a while, and I've not done a side by side comparison of the Quill database, but it's pretty much the identical game as far as I remember. (Edit: The start is slightly different in Yellow Door, as it features the standard "Door" series framing device)

Another game in that series, Crisis at Christmas, which started out as a type-in release, was similarly rebranded as White Door (Crisis at Christmas) to fit in with the "Door" series.

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=7179

There seems no real reason why Rays gets two entries and Crisis at Christmas only one!

Similarly, there are other text adventures in the database that were originally written with the GAC or Quill and then got later recoded as a PAWed game. That's a bit more than a cosmetic tweak, but from what I remember, the versions of the games are listed under the same ID.

Please see the notes here viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1425&p=24963&hilit=theseus#p24963 for examples of text adventures that don't have the different IDs (despite being recoded, different versions... certainly more different than Rays/Yellow Door).

One of the deciding factors for WOS splitting versions of games in the past, seems to be if they had a DIFFERENT title.

...I can't help thinking you've opened a can of worms here. :)
Last edited by 8BitAG on Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm Another game in that series, Crisis at Christmas, which started out as a type-in release, was similarly rebranded as White Door to fit in with the "Door" series.
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=7179
There seems no real reason why Rays gets two entries and Crisis at Christmas only one!
As both an aside, and continuing along that theme, the snapshot listed under Crisis at Christmas is, as far as I can see, NOT the Sinclair User type-in version from 1987. It's the Tartan "White Door" rebrand, with the added 'Door' series "You opened the door, didn't you?" and a choice of playing as Mum or Dad (rather than Ron or Nancy as specified in the Sinclair User type-in).

This means that the original type-in version of Crisis at Christmas is not actually in the database.

(Edit: Presumably the link given in the magazine references http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jg27p ... isisac.zip once pointed to a typed-in version of the game? Edit # 2... That file has been retrieved from the Internet Archive and DOES NOT contain the type-in version... Making the links inclusion there pointless/incorrect.)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm The screenshot for 'Go To Jail' still says 'Automonopoli' on its loading screen. Again, I would assume 'Automonopoli' was the original title, but the 'Monopoly' people complained.
Confirmed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automonopoli

Thanks!
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Einar Saukas
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm Rays came first. Yellow Door second, in order to fit in with the "Door" series of Tartan games.
Thanks!

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm Another game in that series, Crisis at Christmas, which started out as a type-in release, was similarly rebranded as White Door (Crisis at Christmas) to fit in with the "Door" series.
There are 5 titles in this series:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... oup_id=235

Are they supposed to be played in any specific order?

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm There seems no real reason why Rays gets two entries and Crisis at Christmas only one!
Are there any differences between Crisis at Christmas and White Door?

Never mind, I just noticed that you have already answered this question in another post!

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm ...I can't help thinking you've opened a can of worms here. :)
Kinda. However I'm not really doing anything new. Right now, "Rays" and "The Yellow Door" are already separate entries, but the relation between them is stored as written comments. Replacing these comments with proper "derived from" relations will provide more precise information, that could be used in advanced searches for instance.
Last edited by Einar Saukas on Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:25 pm OK, 'Fantastic Voyage' got re-releases under that title, so I guess that was the later one - they must have had official license to use the movie title.
OK, that's a safe bet. It would be insane to obtain the movie license, then rename the game to something else.

Thanks!
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Einar Saukas
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm My guess is 'Wimbledon' came first - looking at the cassette inlay it looks very amateurish, and appears to have been self-published. I would guess the more professional release came later, but needed a name change because of unauthorised use of the title in a tennis game. 'Super Brat' seems a strange alternate title, but was presumably a reference to McEnroe?
That's also a good guess. Thanks!
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Joefish wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:31 pm Is it safe to assume 'Treble Champions' is the later title, since that got ported to other platforms?
It was also re-released later. Another good guess, thanks!
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Also which one is the original: Adventure Builder or Adventure Builder System ?
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:46 pm Also which one is the original: Adventure Builder or Adventure Builder System ?
Adventure Builder is the original, type-in system from Sinclair User, that was later expanded upon and released by Tartan as the Adventure Builder System (ABS).
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:54 pm
Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:46 pm Also which one is the original: Adventure Builder or Adventure Builder System ?
Adventure Builder is the original, type-in system from Sinclair User, that was later expanded upon and released by Tartan as the Adventure Builder System (ABS).
Thanks!
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 pm There are 5 titles in this series:
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... oup_id=235
Are they supposed to be played in any specific order?
Open Door was written as a complete introduction, so that one should be first.

Tom's usual order of putting them on tape was Open / White / Green / Red / Yellow.

(that's not the order the games were created in but is probably the official order of the series & a decent order to tackle them in.)
8BitAG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:47 pm There seems no real reason why Rays gets two entries and Crisis at Christmas only one!
Are there any differences between Crisis at Christmas and White Door?
Never mind, I just noticed that you have already answered this question in another post!
Probably as much as between Rays/Yellow Door. :-/

I'm actually of the opinion that Rays/Yellow Door shouldn't be two separate entries. The games are virtually identical. Magazines often referenced one when they meant the other (the magazine section references for both are a little bit of a mess... there are 'Yellow Door' references on the 'Rays' page, for instance). I'd personally have said a single entry, with the different versions clearly labelled and explained, would've been enough.

All the Tartan entries are pretty confusing, due to the amount of compilations (and tweaked compilations) that Tom put out; including several special offers for fanzines and magazines.

You can see how interchangeable the two titles of Rays & Yellow Door are here...

There are two six-in-one compilations...
Six-in-One https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=11355
and
Tom Frost's Six Pack https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=11382

Both entries in the database list Yellow Door on the compilations.

Both entries confusingly link to the same Your Sinclair review... of Six-in-One https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 40&page=81

And that review refers to the game on the tape as being Rays!

But, on the tape images given (both call the compations 6-in-One btw) ... it's Yellow Door...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Honestly, I think Rays & Yellow Door would be better off as a single entry, entitled Rays aka Yellow Door with the description mentioning that Rays was later tweaked to become part of the Tartan "Door" series of games. Things were more fluid back then. The game just morphed from one title/incarnation to the other. They weren't two distinct games. Just two different versions of the same game.

Certainly it would remove the issue over confusing facts like all the compilations that Rays is listed as being on, on its SC page, are actually compilations whose images feature the game Yellow Door.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

Out of interest, I did a comparison of the Quill source code for Rays and Yellow Door.

Aside from the framing device of the doorway at the start, it's mostly formatting, spelling, and minor bug fixes.

http://8bitag.com/temp/rays-yellow.pdf
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by jpablo »

Though it's not the same case, I was wondering if El Mundo Perdido could be split from People from Sirius by creating a new entry and using the new derived relation.

I've always thought that the current re-release relation falls a bit short, but it is essentially the same game anyway - certainly not a mod by any means!
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

And what about Frank N Stein Rebooted?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... id=26834

Should be included as derived? I think you know much about this story ;)
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

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Comparing the linked text adventures...

Daemon https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... id=0010759
...which later became...
The Haunting https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6422

Comparison: http://8bitag.com/temp/daemon-haunting.pdf

Although the game logic is largely the same, resulting in two games pretty much identical in terms of puzzles, virtually every message has been tweaked slightly. There are some additional messages in the revised version.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

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BTW, not to make an offtopic, but to point out that we have a similar situation with the Timex, games. For example Planetoids for the ZX Spectrum https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=3755 amd Plantetoids for the Timex Sinclair https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... id=4000058 On some cases the game is the same, on other, the loader or the loading screen is different, and on some small cases the game has some tweak to make it compatible or use the special hardware (joysticks, sound, etc).
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by 8BitAG »

I'm sure that [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] is fed up of my posts about 'Rays'/'Yellow Door' by now... :)

But...

After discussing whether we should merge Rays & Yellow Door over at CASA, which was what I requested to do on here too, I think I will rescind my request.

NOT because I think that Rays & Yellow Door are in any way different enough to warrant two separate entries. They are definitely not. They are the same game.

BUT it's because of this C&VG review, which is linked to on the Rays database page...

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/mag.php ... 17&page=67

This review is of a pre-release version of Rays which is pretty different to the version of Rays/Yellow Door which we currently hold in the archives.

It absolutely slates the game. Moaning about the colour scheme and various issues with objects/puzzles that AREN'T EVEN in Rays/Yellow Door. Even the plot/objective is slightly different to "released" version of Rays.

It sounds (unsurprisingly) like this game got a pretty comprehensive rewrite before it was released. Dumping a whole load of puzzles, and expanding the amount of 'rays' that needed to be found from four up to eight.

The existence of that pre-release (but reviewed) version of 'Rays' is enough to justify an separate entry for me. Even though it is MIA and does not exist in the database. We do need to write up some notes to mention that alternate version on the game page, though.

That C&VG review is also interesting because it mentions that fact that 'Rays' would have originally been released on the A-side of a tape that had a three-part adventure called 'Doors' on the B-Side.

This 'Doors' would have consisted of Green Door, Black Door, and Blue Door.

Green Door is a known Tartan game in the Doors series and the description matches the plot/puzzles.

Black Door is not a known game but the description suggests that was actually the game that was released as Red Door (which was similarly Egyptian themed).

Blue Door is an unknown game. It's plot mentions Bluebeard, who does not appear in any of the Tartan titles. It's possible that this game was not completed (or even started) when Rays got reviewed in C&VG. The C&VG review mentions he was not given any of these Doors games.

So... I guess that review is the earliest mention of Green Door, a mention & also-known-as for Red Door, and a lost/missing/unfinished game for Blue Door.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by StooB »

Einar Saukas wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:54 pm Treble Champions or Treble Chance
Treble Chance doesn't exist. The review of "Treble Chance" in Sinclair User is referred to by E&J as the review of "Treble Champions" in their letter of complaint to Crash.

The tzx on the Treble Chance page is just a saved Treble Champions game into it's second season with the names changed.
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

Juan F. Ramirez wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:12 pmAnd what about Frank N Stein Rebooted?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... id=26834

Should be included as derived? I think you know much about this story ;)
Frank N Stein and Frank N Stein Re-booted look so similar because they use the same in-game graphics, with minor differences. But they are quite different underneath. The player speed was changed (in comparison to enemies), affecting the way existing levels were solved, also certain levels were modified and several more levels added. In both games, the gameplay alternates between more puzzle-oriented "odd" levels and more action-oriented "even" levels, but "even" levels didn't offer any challenge in the old game. The mechanic of these levels were redesigned in the new game. Other details were also changed, because the game code was completely rewritten. Thus the differences were more extensive than just an upgraded version.

I'm starting to consider that the term "derived games" is misleading. Perhaps I should have called it "upgraded games"?

The criteria currently adopted in ZXDB is as follows:
  • If a game has only cosmetic changes (different loading screen or title), it's just considered a different release of the same game, stored under the same ID (for instance Phantis/Game Over 2). Also subtle (hard to notice) internal differences fall into this category (for instance bugfixes in Erbe's re-release of Bruce Lee).
  • If the game is an upgraded version with noticeable differences (usually as an attempt to make it more attractive), then it's considered a "derived" (or "upgraded"?) game with a new ID (for instance Bride of Frankenstein and Frankenstein Jnr, Sorcery and Sorcery+).
  • If the game has such extensive changes that it offers a new gameplay experience (usually using the same code base but providing new levels), then it's considered a "sequel" (for instance Uridium and Uridium+, Vallation and Vallation 128K).
There's also the case of a new title that only offers new levels, but requires the original game to be executed. In this case, it's classified as an "Add-on pack that depends on" another title.

All these categories above refer to games updated by the same people responsible for the original. In case of a game modified by others, it's considered a "mod" regardless of how much was changed.

Makes sense?
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Re: HELP WANTED: Derived games

Post by Einar Saukas »

druellan wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:38 am Perhaps Tau Ceti https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5155 and Tau Ceti Special Edition https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=5155 ?
Tau Ceti Special Edition has a lot more content so I'm inclined to keep it classified as "sequel".
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