World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
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5MinuteRetro
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World of Spectrum....

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

I guess I could ask this at the WoS forums but, frankly, I no longer trust them as a source of unbiased information. So... whatever happened to WoS?

I remember 15-20 years ago when I first stumbled upon it, when it was run by Martijn: it was *the* place to go for all things Spectrum. As a lurker there
I am of course aware of *some* of what's happened -- particularly recently, with the ZX Vega+ debacle -- but how did this once-great resource become what appears to be one person's fiefdom? Is it a personality cult (sic)?

Or shall we just not do this here?

Both serious questions, btw.

Scott.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

5MinuteRetro wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:21 pm Or shall we just not do this here?
I'd really rather we didn't.

We don't want SC to turn into a place to slag off WoS or the Vega.

The forum guidelines, and the whole drive of Spectrum Computing is to set a positive tone. I'm here because we have a site that is hosting new software, not enough of it yet, but we're working on it. The scope of the archive could extend beyond that.

This is new for me, I'm not going to lock the thread but will keep an eye on it and see if it gets nasty.

We should put our energies into what we do best, directing our misplaced inferiority complex at the commodore 64 :mrgreen:
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 5MinuteRetro »

Yep, I think that's fair and, to be honest, I regretted posting this almost as soon as I clicked Submit. So, consider it closed and me out. Someone feel free to delete. Sorry all.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ivanzx »

Hi 5minuteRetro and all!

Nah, I dont think we need to close threads here, I think this should be a place where we can speak like adults and not going crazy with childlish reactions.

I also think that we should focus on positive things (karma always comes back! :P) so I personally will try to forget about WoS issues and try to be productive and have fun over here too ;)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

R-Tape wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:42 pm
5MinuteRetro wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:21 pm Or shall we just not do this here?
I'd really rather we didn't.

We don't want SC to turn into a place to slag off WoS or the Vega.

The forum guidelines, and the whole drive of Spectrum Computing is to set a positive tone.
Ivanzx wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:29 am I dont think we need to close threads here, I think this should be a place where we can speak like adults and not going crazy with childlish reactions.
I completely agree with both these comments.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ramsrc »

I actually think it is a tremendous shame - I know none of the people involved with WOS personally, nor do I understand the ins and outs of what has been happening over there but I have been visiting on and off for years. It is one of those websites that has (for me) almost always been around (right back to the around the time when I first started using the Internet in the early 90s)

I think WOS started in around 1995, and at that time I used to access it from a VAX 11 Mainframe :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by EdwardCatflap »

I used to find it (sad I know) fascinating to look at the emails to and from authors of old games giving their permission for games to be on there.

If I recall, one of the Odin guys got a bit tetchy about the rights to their games an completely overreacted.

None of the links work anymore :roll:
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ZXDunny »

I've jumped ship for this place, ever since the phrase "zxdb" was blocked on WoS. It's a shame, but I don't see the site surviving much longer now - but we really, really need a backup of all the files in the database. Quite a few of my scanned books are up there.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by AndyC »

I suspect now is not the time to have that conversation, everything is still a bit raw, but I'd much rather a forum that allowed discussions about the wider scene (warts and all) than one which arbitrarily shuts down conversation without justification.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ »

ZXDunny wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:15 pm I've jumped ship for this place, ever since the phrase "zxdb" was blocked on WoS. It's a shame, but I don't see the site surviving much longer now - but we really, really need a backup of all the files in the database. Quite a few of my scanned books are up there.
Hello Paul,

Nice to have you on board sir.

There is a full mirror of WoS on archive.org. it's 89GB though. I have a secure copy for my own personal use...

https://archive.org/details/World_of_Sp ... 017_Mirror
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

Yes, it's a sad story what happened to WOS. It proves how much depends on a single man, his commitment and personality.

But personally I also wouldn't like to make some hate threads here. I hope we'll be able to build something worthy here. Maybe not as splendid as WOS in its golden years as we are older, busier, more tired and many folks are no longer with us, but still a nice, friendly place to hang out.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ADJB »

The last full dump I have of WOS taken on 7th December 2014 is 131gig (320963 files) so it could be that the archive.org mirror isn't complete.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by damieng »

Basically Martijn found love and got married.

I believe some people volunteered and found it harder to maintain than they expected and much more of a commitment. Additional help was rejected and things dragged on for ages, everyone got upset and that had a negative effect on further progress.

But then I've stayed pretty out of it so this is my at-a-very-long-arms-length interpretation.

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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

We can at least learn from the mistakes WoS have made, and figure out how to nurture a thriving and active community. Martjin did some things very very right to get WoS the prominence it received.

My personal opinion is such a project isn't a one-man operation, and needs a team. And that team needs the community support and backing, and also needs to earn the community's trust.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by pak21 »

It's also worth noting that Martijn was pretty much doing a full-time job (in terms of hours) maintaining WoS - on top of his actual real life job. Not surprising that other people couldn't keep up with that level of effort.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by richl »

This is my view regarding WoS. It may not be yours but I've tried to keep it as level-headed as I can. I've tried to keep mud-slinging to a minimum but it's hard to not name names since they (in my opinion) are at the heart of the issue. I'm not trying to troll/attack/slag off whatever - seriously - but skirting around the elephant in the room would be pointless. We ought to be encouraging healthy, rational discussion as supressing it has (again: in my opinion) led to where we are now.

The way I see it is that WoS was put together as a collaborative effort in order to catalogue and discuss everything Spectrum-related and act as a unified single point of reference for the online community as a whole. It was extremely well maintained and organised by one person, namely Martijn, but its content was mostly provided by its users.

Since Lee has taken over it has moved away from being a collaborative effort into "World of Lee" where no-one else's opinion matters. Users can submit content but who knows where it'll end up or if it'll ever be publicly accessible? Questions about Lee's "big secret plan" for the future of the site are forbidden or mostly just ignored. After years of apparent non-activity this has eventually led to fragmentation in the so-called community where breakway groups have been formed and even certain parts of WoS that ought to be publicly visible have been siphoned off into the mess that is Facebook, where even there only those select few who don't say anything to offend fragile egos are allowed in.

With any sort of collaborative project like what was originally going on at WoS there almost needs to be a clearly defined mission statement or terms of use - almost something like how Wikipedia explains what its purpose is. ZXDB seems to me to be a really excellent solution to what's happened over the last few years and I sincerely hope this website that's running off it can become the new point of reference for the Spec and the scene as a whole can move forward in a more harmonious fashion.

I was going to make some comment about that device and its association with WoS which really was the final straw for many people but I think we're all a bit fed up by it now. I just hope justice prevails.

Right then, I think that's me all WoSSed out now. Positivity-only from now on.... :D
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ToonTeddy »

PeterJ wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:56 pm
ZXDunny wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:15 pm I've jumped ship for this place, ever since the phrase "zxdb" was blocked on WoS. It's a shame, but I don't see the site surviving much longer now - but we really, really need a backup of all the files in the database. Quite a few of my scanned books are up there.
Hello Paul,

Nice to have you on board sir.

There is a full mirror of WoS on archive.org. it's 89GB though. I have a secure copy for my own personal use...

https://archive.org/details/World_of_Sp ... 017_Mirror
Just a speccy fan chipping in. This was my main concern if anything happens to WOS, where would the files go, I'm glad that there are mirrors around.
I only registered here in case anything happens and I want my ZX fix. :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

It's also worth noting that Martijn was pretty much doing a full-time job (in terms of hours) maintaining WoS - on top of his actual real life job.
I remember him saying that he worked 10-15 hours per week on the site. It's not maybe full time job but it is a lot of time for sure.

In the final years, still before he met that Thai woman he seemed, at least for me, tired with WOS. I suppose 17 years (1995-2012) of work may be more than enough for the biggest enthusiast. If you think about it he never came later for ocassional posting after giving website to Lee and seems not to care any more, totally closed that period of his life

The problem with Martijn's work that he invented it all alone. It didn't use standard database like MySql. As I understand it was custom database existing in one example in the world with custom query language and lot of hacks. When Lee saw it, he decided that he's not touching it and building everything from scratch. The rest we know - Lee's progress was incredibly slow and when asked about it he didn't gave answers but just reacted with anger. He also turned out to be unable to cooperate with other people. He always claims to be an experienced IT specialist but I seriously wonder if he ever worked on a bigger team project.

ZXDB is a completely different project - it's very transparent and we see progress each week. Several people work on it. While it remains a mammoth task I can see a light in the tunnel :) Such things cannot be done by a single man because it will always end in burnout and terrible delays.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

To be fair, you can't blame Lee for going down the rebuild it from scratch route.
And, also, until he got the "foundations" sorted, it would have been difficult to work with a team.

Has it been slower than anyone would have liked? Yes. But the fact is, WoS is still there. At least someone saved it, and is still working on it.

Meanwhile, how many other sites about 1980s and 1990s computers have disappeared without much trace?

The other project has not helped.

How many here actually took the time to look at the Wikipedia "talk" page about WoS? How many saw the mini war that was going on there? Whatever else, people actively attacking WoS just because they had personal problems with Lee is well out of order.

Maybe, just maybe, progress with WoS may have been a little bit further on if Lee had not had all the distractions.

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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

How many here actually took the time to look at the Wikipedia "talk" page about WoS? How many saw the mini war that was going on there? Whatever else, people actively attacking WoS just because they had personal problems with Lee is well out of order.
I suppose this Wikipedia affair is something 99% of people don't know what was it all about. I only know that there was a Wikipedia article about WOS and one day it disappeared after some fighting.

I didn't wanted to bring it but it's probably connected to this sad Vega+ affair. To make it short David Levy is a very shady businessman and Lee decided to become his spokesman defending his objectionable businesses. Now he admits foul play but still does it on Facebook and other media, forbiding any discussion on WOS.

Vega's delayed project full of marketing deception made some people angry which focused mainly on Lee and not Levy. He made quite a lot of enemies. I believe it's they who made this Wiki article disappear. They also contacted copyright owners and in result permission for some games like Myth were withdrawn for WOS. Generally Lee's actions on Vega project backfired at WOS and community around it. I'll repeat what was said many times before - world would be a better place without this Vega campaign at all.

By the way - admins, please close this thread anytime when you decide we say too much.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

It took Einar a month to convert Martjin's "custom format" to a relational database import. And it took a few weeks for Spectrum Computing to emerge from that. A year after Einar started, and ZXDB is being actively updated, new features and content being brought it. It's ticking along quite smoothly.

The delays of the replacement WoS aren't caused by criticism, they are caused by the technical decision to build a CMS from scratch. It's a classic boil the ocean mistake. That's then compounded by alienating developers who have the skills and expertise to contribute. What's left is one guy, trying to build an ivory tower solution, plodding along, discouraged every step of the way because there's no visible progress. While all the people who can help on the content side waiting for this CMS to materialise so they can finally start adding in the existing content, that's now 2-3 years out of date.

Einar has shown the more practical and agile path, export the data into a database. Allow people to build a websites on top of that database. Hey presto, an actively maintained catalogue that can be perused by anyone, who can then channel corrections and updates that get added to the database. If a CMS is indeed required, it can be built on the other side of the database, as a backend. That's a great example of technical architecture, deferring the decision about what CMS to use, and then finding out you have a minimal viable product that's actually giving value to users without even dealing with the CMS question.

Fogarty chose the big-bang approach, Einar took the iterative path.
Last edited by Mike Davies on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by ToonTeddy »

I think a lot of it comes from people blaming Lee for a lot of the Vega+ problems, he's an easy target as he's there on the FB Wos page and on the WOS forums. The other two people who are actually involved (although very slowly) in the Vega+ are harder to reach. And as we all know, it's easy to be a 'keyboard warrior' and hide behind a made up name.

I love George's video's on youtube they're entertaining but I would like to see both him and Lee sit down and have an honest and brutal chat about what's been going on.

I'm no one just a speccy fan who's sad about all this nonsense and I would be devastated if any archive of WOS of any other speccy related documents vanished from the internet.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

@Mike Davies - I'm not here to defend Lee. That he can do himself. Einar has indeed done a lot of good work. As has Peter.
I could build a car in a month, but it would not be the same as one designed over many years by a professional vehicle manufacturer and build in a purpose designed factory. Until Lee has got the new WoS to say 90% of what he set out to do, it's rather too early to properly judge the situation. Also please note I am not having a dig at anyone, and I am most certainly not comparing web sites with cars. I'm just saying that there are different routes.

The original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?

Anyway, I think most users will have had enough of this subject. We need to look forward to the future. I for one think that having more than one site for a popular computer like the Spectrum is a good thing.

Mark
Last edited by 1024MAK on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Hikaru »

Well, personally I'm just glad the people at SC have put the final missing piece in. It's probably OK to covertly hope 'dat old WoS spirit' will live on in the end. :)
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Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

1024MAK wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:31 pmThe original WoS site appears to have been build using a number of off-the-shelf software packages that were then glued together with custom code. That sounds like it was a right pain to maintain. Can you blame anyone for trying to avoid such a system?
Both Fogarty and Einar started from the same position, Martjin's data. Except Fogarty has had a 3 year head start.

There's nothing unprofessional about agile development and iterative releases, this is how the Web development world works.
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