World of Spectrum....

Y'know, other stuff, Sinclair related.
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 am Unless you have access to the FB admins group then you have no idea of what discussions happened or didn't happen.
There was extensive public discussion of this matter in the WoS forums, during which you had every opportunity to raise any relevant matters.
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 amI was warned by several people in advance that it would be a mistake to aid Einar but chose to ignore the warnings.
So do you now consider the creation of ZXDB "a mistake"? If so, why?

You seem to have made no reponse on my other points.
fogartylee
Drutt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by fogartylee »

Martijn was working 35hrs a week on top of a full time job because he was the only one that could update the database and move the files. Most of the holidays he took to catch up on infoseek updates, and when he did go away there was often server problems. Added to that, many years ago he wanted to close the forums because they were more hassle than they were worth. At that point he practically left the forums and handed over admin to me, and we took on new moderators.

So, when he announced privately he was leaving, it was decided it would no longer be a one-man job. A system has been put into place that means anyone can be added to the team and maintain their own part of the site without worrying about breaking other parts or losing data. Files can be maintained without the need for FTP, etc...

It was also known to people working on the data and testing the scripts that the database would be rapidly increasing with a lot more information. It's not practical to use ZXDB with that amount of data - or any site via SQL statements. I can't remember the last time I looked at the new WoS database because it's created by the system as we add new modules, and with correct permissions in the admin can have new fields added or existing ones changed as needed. Einar also knew this, so when he was publicly asking for the database schema, he knew full well those modules hadn't been completed yet, and therefore there was no schema.

What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.

What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them. Are they going to spend hours on the phone speaking to copyright holders, or visiting them personally, as I have done? I doubt it.
User avatar
balford
Drutt
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by balford »

May I be the first to call 'Bollocks'.

Really Lee, you're insulting people's intelligence here.

You're a chancer, spoofer, and whatever other adjective suits a person who takes on a project way above their capability level.

The best thing you could do is to hand over WoS to a more capable team of people who can do it justice. However, your ego won't let you do that.
Fixing ZX Spectrums in the 21st Century
https://github.com/brendanalford/zx-diagnostics
User avatar
RMartins
Manic Miner
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by RMartins »

If you @fogartylee are able to step out of your own private world, that virtual shell you live in, and take an honest look of all you have been writing, you might be surprised of how it sounds like.

Click on "number of posts" link, on the right, of one of your messages.
Your first message on this forum, was an attack ... and all others followed the same pattern.

You keep on attacking people, always pledging for the injustice, the betrayal of your poor working righteous self, like if the world is against you.
It's the other way around, you are going against the world!

Your actions, and toxic/oppressive behaviour, led to this.
You were living an illusion, the dream ended.

The community does not want to abandon, WOS.
The vast majority just came to the conclusion that we do not want to participate in WOS with you at the helm.

The problem is not WOS, it's the "type of management" being enforced in WOS.

So you replaced the Admins/moderators ... sure, that solves the problem, right ?
Is that why you are here attacking the people you blame of your misfortune ?

Notice that I wrote "your" and not WOS misfortune.
You take this too personaly.

No one, is rejecting, that somewhere in time, you were useful to the preservation of the community, and that you eventually contributed in a positive way, in the past. But it's just not true anymore.

If you think this through, what is your goal, with these bursts of accusations/comments ?

Are you expecting us to go back to WOS, with you as admin ?
Are you trying to convince us you are not responsible for the toxic/oppressing place WOS forum as become ?

You have to learn to let go, to know when you have failed, to admit it to yourself (not to us), and move on.

You wanted to leave.
So why did you stay ?
What kept you as admin ?

You seriously need professional help, to manage your insecurities and lack of purpose, if you are not WOS admin.
Because this is all it boils down to.

You feel abandoned by the community.
When in fact, it was you who ostracized the community ...

Hopefully this message will ground you to hearth again, and make you rethink your life.

I wish I could help you, but I don't know how.
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

balford wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:46 am May I be the first to call 'Bollocks'.

Really Lee, you're insulting people's intelligence here.

You're a chancer, spoofer, and whatever other adjective suits a person who takes on a project way above their capability level.

The best thing you could do is to hand over WoS to a more capable team of people who can do it justice. However, your ego won't let you do that.
Just in case things are hotting up. While I'm flabbergasted by some of his posts can we be sure we don't resort to insults. Don't give anyone a reason to hit the report post button.
User avatar
1024MAK
Bugaboo
Posts: 3104
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:52 pm
Location: Sunny Somerset in the U.K. in Europe

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by 1024MAK »

@Whacker post
Use these links:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org
https://www.creative-spectrum.co.uk

@ everyone who is hurling mud around the place. The unfounded accusations and bad language are not needed.
The WoS forum has a team of moderators (or administrators if you prefer that term). It is the moderator team that carry out the day to day moderation of the forum.

In other forums about 1980's and 1990's computers, the behaviour demonstrated here by members having a go at WoS administrators and moderators would not be tolerated. You would be receiving warnings and if these were ignored, then you would be banned.

So I would appreciate it if you can keep the discussion civil.

Mark
Last edited by 1024MAK on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
:!: Standby alert :!:
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb :dance
Looking forward to summer later in the year.
gazaxian
Drutt
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:26 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by gazaxian »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:41 pm You do know the URL you posted is wrong?

I *think* I've fixed the leeching bug. I'm sure someone will let me know if I haven't....

The access to WoS data is far more & a lot easier than it was before. If anything, the walls are being knocked down.
Hey Lee

The best way to make WoS data easier to access is making it freely available to anyone. So why don't you do that?

It wouldn't mean ending you work on WoS, would show a real commitment to opening up the archive and go some way to repairing the terrible damage done to both Wos and your reputation.

Unfortunately, we've got to a point where it's near impossible for anything you say to be taken seriously. Realistically, you're only going to be judged on your actions so it's time to act.

I've got to admit I'm not optimistic. Your claims smack of Kim Jong-Il levels of desperation to cling onto power though instead of the threat of nuclear Armageddon we're under the Damocles sword of some Popular Computing Weekly scans going unseen.

While I've got your attention can you remove my email address from the WoS database? Getting banned for expressing concerns about the Vega you later confirmed as accurate is a bit galling though bearable.

Getting cack handed spam from you after that banning is a bit much though.
gazaxian
Drutt
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:26 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by gazaxian »

1024MAK wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:00 am @Whacker post
Use these links:
http://live.worldofspectrum.org
https://www.creative-spectrum.co.uk

@ everyone who is hurling mud around the place. The unfounded accusations and bad language are not needed.
The WoS forum has a team of moderators (or administrators if you prefer that term). It is the moderator team that carry out the day to day moderation of the forum.

In other forums about 1980's and 1990's computers, the behaviour demonstrated here by members having a go at WoS administrators and moderators would not be tolerated. You would be receiving warnings and if these were ignored, then you would be banned.

So I would appreciate it if you can keep the discussion civil.

Mark
To be fair Mark you've accused people of out and out lying or being blind sheep in this thread.

I don't think that should result in a warning or a ban for yourself but the quid pro quo here is you shouldn't be so intolerant of other people expressing their opinions in a similar manner.
User avatar
Mike Davies
Microbot
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.
SQL isn't an arcane system or language. It's generally known by a large number of developers, and it's basic enough of a structure that third-party tools can be produced, or even are available, to import, export, and modify data in that format. This is what openness looks like.

Maybe JSON is a more flexible data format, but using SQL hasn't prevented ZXDB sites from using non-SQL options for storage, take for example Thomas Kolbeck's ZX Info: http://sinclair.kolbeck.dk/home -- it's using ElasticSearch, which isn't an SQL engine. (And his source code is publicly available so any developer can checkout a copy and do the same thing). This is what openness looks like.

If Einar decides to stop working on ZXDB, anyone can take the latest snapshot and continue from there. Einar has solved the actual problem here, of not having the entire dataset reliant on a single person. Anyone who is interested can continue, either alone or collaborating with others, to keep updates flowing. That's what openness looks like.

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints?
The Internet Archive has a long history of archiving material in a number of industries. It's more likely World of Spectrum will crumble in the face of copyright threats before The Internet Archive does.
fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them.
Interesting. Are you saying no-one from the WorldOfSpectrum website got contacted by The Internet Archive, and no-one from WorldOfSpectrum gave permission, or assisted in anyway in The Internet Archive getting hold of a WoS backup?
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

fogartylee wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 am Martijn was working 35hrs a week on top of a full time job because he was the only one that could update the database and move the files. Most of the holidays he took to catch up on infoseek updates, and when he did go away there was often server problems. Added to that, many years ago he wanted to close the forums because they were more hassle than they were worth. At that point he practically left the forums and handed over admin to me, and we took on new moderators.

So, when he announced privately he was leaving, it was decided it would no longer be a one-man job. A system has been put into place that means anyone can be added to the team and maintain their own part of the site without worrying about breaking other parts or losing data. Files can be maintained without the need for FTP, etc...

It was also known to people working on the data and testing the scripts that the database would be rapidly increasing with a lot more information. It's not practical to use ZXDB with that amount of data - or any site via SQL statements. I can't remember the last time I looked at the new WoS database because it's created by the system as we add new modules, and with correct permissions in the admin can have new fields added or existing ones changed as needed. Einar also knew this, so when he was publicly asking for the database schema, he knew full well those modules hadn't been completed yet, and therefore there was no schema.

What you have now is exactly where Martijn was - one person performing updates, and to update the website you need to run the SQL statements. That's fine. But Einar always stated that once WoS is finished he has no intention of keeping ZXDB going. Has that changed? Who is taking over? And again you have one person maintaining the data - and in this case several sites.

What happens if archive.org receive copyright complaints? Will they argue their case, or disable the WoS files? Files which they are happy to advertise as WoS backup without actually having permission to host them. Are they going to spend hours on the phone speaking to copyright holders, or visiting them personally, as I have done? I doubt it.
Lee, none of this has anything to do with the preceding discussion, for example, the blocking of ZXDB and Spectrum Computing, and the allegations you seem to be making against Einar.

You again seem not to have responded to any of my points.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6852
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by PeterJ »

grahamken wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:05 pm Hmmm...that would be an ecumenical matter!
I love that Father Ted episode!
User avatar
Mike Davies
Microbot
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

fogartylee wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pm As for the forums - the search works as well as it can with 1m comments and the size of the database makes it very difficult to host anywhere but a dedicated service. It uses Sphinx as the search service which is about as good as it gets. Without Sphinx it takes 30-60 seconds to do a full search of the forums - with it, it takes less than a second.
The WoS forum posts amount to just over 1.1Gb uncompressed (distributed over 54,471 threads). That's well within the feature-set of a VPS.

Also, Google has a successful track record of making things findable and searchable. So allowing Google to crawl and index the forums is the first step towards making the forum searchable without needing a self-hosted search service (VPS or dedicated).
EdwardCatflap
Drutt
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:23 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by EdwardCatflap »

Let’s tackle the elephant in the room..

Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.

You have no credibility left, your part in the ZX Vega debacle and dubious attempts to get out of it and your ‘if you disagree with something I say I will ban you’ sulks has left your reputation in tatters. WOS is a mess since you took over. Broken links everywhere and the forums are dead.

Not forgetting your deliberate trolling of Zx Vega backers by taking a dog eared and beaten up Zx Vega to Spectrum 35.

Do the decent thing, just give it (WOS) up to someone who cares deeply for the Community or close it and let this site take over and get the scene back to what it was, nice friendly community chat about the ZX Spectrum and all things Sinclair related.
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

What do you really expect to achieve with that post? You've probably already said this to him/about him all over social media. If you think Lee should be held to account then do it over at WoS.

Any more attacks and you make SC look bad. Please stop it.
User avatar
Sokurah
Manic Miner
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am
Contact:

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Sokurah »

EdwardCatflap wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am
Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.

You have no credibility left, your part in the ZX Vega debacle and dubious attempts to get out of it and your ‘if you disagree with something I say I will ban you’ sulks has left your reputation in tatters. WOS is a mess since you took over. Broken links everywhere and the forums are dead.
A lot of people aren't happy with the way WoS is being handled, but to call the forums dead is a bit of an exaggeration.
The search engine certainly is broken, but on the whole the forum does work. And that is something he has fixed.

To ask for him to close WoS is making yourself look like a moron though. By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ... but there's a lot of useful information on that forum, that it would be a damn shame to not have access to anymore.
Website: Tardis Remakes / Mostly remakes of Arcade and ZX Spectrum games.
My games for the Spectrum: Dingo, The Speccies, The Speccies 2, Vallation & Sqij.
Twitter: Sokurah
Ralf
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2279
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Poland

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ralf »

By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ...
If you close Chit-Chat, traffic on WOS will drop by about 80% :lol:

That's some bigger problem that many WOS users simply don't care about updates, about preservation of software, about working database and generally about Zx Spectrum. They just want to babble in Chit-Chat about their food, listened music, celebrity deaths, some jokes from Internet and so on.

These guys actually never complain on Lee as they have all they need.

One of problems for WOS is bad management but the other one would be these apathetic users who no longer show enthusiasm for Spectrum news.

I really hope that Chit-Chat section here won't be the most active section ;) And that this place will be different, maybe smaller but with more valuable content.
User avatar
R-Tape
Site Admin
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by R-Tape »

Ralf wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm I really hope that Chit-Chat section here won't be the most active section ;) And that this place will be different, maybe smaller but with more valuable content.
That's my hope for the place too, and if in a few weeks our most active thread is still the World of Spectrum then we have a problem.
User avatar
Ast A. Moore
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Ast A. Moore »

PeterJ wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:56 am
grahamken wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:05 pm Hmmm...that would be an ecumenical matter!
I love that Father Ted episode!
Image
Every man should plant a tree, build a house, and write a ZX Spectrum game.

Author of A Yankee in Iraq, a 50 fps shoot-’em-up—the first game to utilize the floating bus on the +2A/+3,
and zasm Z80 Assembler syntax highlighter.
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Rorthron »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:17 pm If in a few weeks our most active thread is still the World of Spectrum then we have a problem.
I'm not worried about that. This thread had been dead for a while before it got dredged up.

The vast majority of the posts here are interesting and Spectrum-related.
User avatar
balford
Drutt
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by balford »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:34 am Just in case things are hotting up. While I'm flabbergasted by some of his posts can we be sure we don't resort to insults. Don't give anyone a reason to hit the report post button.
I’d like to apologise for the tone of my earlier posts. You are completely right and there is indeed no need to stoop to that level.
Fixing ZX Spectrums in the 21st Century
https://github.com/brendanalford/zx-diagnostics
User avatar
Mike Davies
Microbot
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

EdwardCatflap wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am Lee, I think it’s best for WOS and the Spectrum Community on a whole is if you give up WOS (or close it) and just leave the ‘scene’.
That's not correct. Lee can keep WoS as his own personal fiefdom. The problem is having such a person, who has lost/thrown away the respect and credibility of large chunks of the Spectrum community as the sole gatekeeper of Spectrum content archives, where he can keep using his control to cut out people in the community he dislikes. That's now a solved problem - he doesn't control ZXDB.

The Spectrum Computing site, and ZXDB underneath have succeeded in creating a means of contributing that isn't impaired or controlled by this one gatekeeper. I'd urge you, instead of demanding that Lee leave, double down and contribute to Spectrum Computing and ZXDB, support those avenues as best you can. There is nothing Lee can do to interfere with the ZXDB dataset. His main ambition seems to be to duplicate a large chunk of work that's already available for free in ZXDB -- that's his choice. As Napolean once said, "Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake".
EdwardCatflap wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:35 am Do the decent thing, just give it (WOS) up to someone who cares deeply for the Community or close it and let this site take over and get the scene back to what it was, nice friendly community chat about the ZX Spectrum and all things Sinclair related.
This site -- and ZXDB -- doesn't need Lee's permission to be the community website for the ZX Spectrum. This site has to earn that level of respect from the Spectrum community, one person at a time. That's what Martijn had to do when he built the World of Spectrum.

If Lee (or his "team") was interested in collaboration, and avoiding duplicate effort, and taking advantage of titles that don't exist in WoS currently, he/they could collaborate as equals, and feed in corrections and updates back into ZXDB. Lee doesn't control ZXDB. ZXDB is open, and available for anyone to use, and so far I've not seen a single example of it's creator and curator saying to any site that they can't use ZXDB -- much the opposite, to Einar's credit.
Last edited by Mike Davies on Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mike Davies
Microbot
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Mike Davies »

R-Tape wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:17 pm That's my hope for the place too, and if in a few weeks our most active thread is still the World of Spectrum then we have a problem.
If the thread continues to surface concerns about what the community loses if WoS disappears (e.g. the decade old and useful content hidden away deep inside the forum), that gives us time to mitigate these concerns. Community-wise that is a good thing.

The community has achieved much since August last year in safeguarding the archive from a possible WoS demise, to the point that we are no longer beholden to whomever hold the reigns. That is progress.
User avatar
Morkin
Bugaboo
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Morkin »

Sokurah wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ... but there's a lot of useful information on that forum, that it would be a damn shame to not have access to anymore.
Oi..! There's a lot of valuable culinary information in that forum that needs preserving... In the future who knows when someone might want to make a study on the unhealthy diets of middle age Spectrum owners... :lol:
My Speccy site: thirdharmoniser.com
User avatar
Juan F. Ramirez
Bugaboo
Posts: 5101
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:55 am
Location: Málaga, Spain

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Juan F. Ramirez »

Morkin wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:50 pm
Sokurah wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ... but there's a lot of useful information on that forum, that it would be a damn shame to not have access to anymore.
Oi..! There's a lot of valuable culinary information in that forum that needs preserving... In the future who knows when someone might want to make a study on the unhealthy diets of middle age Spectrum owners... :lol:
Absolutely agree man! :mrgreen:
Nomad
Manic Miner
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:38 pm

Re: World of Spectrum....

Post by Nomad »

Morkin wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:50 pm
Sokurah wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am By all means - nuke the Chit Chat section - that's worthless anyway ... but there's a lot of useful information on that forum, that it would be a damn shame to not have access to anymore.
Oi..! There's a lot of valuable culinary information in that forum that needs preserving... In the future who knows when someone might want to make a study on the unhealthy diets of middle age Spectrum owners... :lol:
That is the thing, people today can't know what the interests of the future fellows are in the past. With the preservation stuff I was always surprised things I didn't even think about at the time (tape inlays), promo stuff. Sure I think everyone knew to hang on to the games but the utilities? That is becoming a centre for study (in Atari personal computers, they have a whole podcast dedicated to productivity tools :) )

With storage space being cheap now (and getting cheaper) probably just best to gobble as much as possible and leave it to the future to decide what they want or don't want to look at lol.
Post Reply