The Perils of Willy

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R-Tape
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

highrise wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:20 am
yes, on the 15th March I made the first public release of the game, and asked nicely that people don't publish walkthroughs using rollback as the game may not be fully complete.

On the 16th March, rollback is published. So it seems that you guys are stuck with this version now.... :)
It looks to me like it was an oversight or misunderstanding, and not a deliberate intent to disrespect the author. I suspect it won't be happening again with your games. I'm sure we can agree that it's no reason to give it the "and now you've spoiled it for everyone" treatment.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

You might be right, I was flippant with my original comment but in my defence I did elaborate.

Also, because of the work i do with AGDx I am actually involved in some capacity with quite a lot of other homebrew games. I know the work that goes into these and time and again I see people racing to make rollbacks videos with little to no regard for the work, no comments or reviews. They simply want to be the first to make videos on Youtube for their own hits. So I decided to make a stand for my own principles and call it out for what it is, i.e taking the piss.

It's not a question of spoiling it for everyone. It's a question of reconsidering exactly how I distribute the work in the future because although I am happy to do work for myself that I enjoy, share it with people who appreciate it, and help others do the same in a supportive, holistic way, I think I need to consider that (1) there are people who take this model for granted and expect to just take what they want and give nothing back, and (2) I am not willing to accept that this is 'just how things are'. I always believe things can be better.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

As the author of the RZX walkthrough which was published on RZX Archive a day after the game's release - and then taken down upon request from the game's author - I would like to make the following points:

I absolutely disagree with any requests by authors not to publish things related to their games - which are permitted by the law - after the games have been released.

I understand that an author can request that an RZX file not be hosted somewhere, because an RZX file is also a game file - someone can download it, stop the playback and play the game. That's comprehensible and I *think* an author could even try to enforce such a request legally, since hosting an RZX file might be considered infringing upon their intellectual property rights.

However, I don't believe a video of a game falls into the same category - I don't think it's protected by law the same way the original product is (or a version thereof, like an RZX walkthrough). A video is not a game, one cannot use it to play the game.

Now, if someone asks that a video is not made of a released game - well, you could equally ask: Please don't write any reviews of it for the first two weeks after the release, or don't publish any screenshots. Would that be a reasonable request? No, it wouldn't.

People interested in the ZX Spectrum are mostly adults. They make conscious choices. If a video is available to watch how a game can be completed, nobody has to watch it. If someone enjoys playing games without any help, solving all the puzzles and overcoming obstacles all by themselves - that's fine, they're perfectly entitled and able to do it. Nobody forces them to watch a published video of the walkthrough. However, why should it bother them that there is a video published and that someone else - who makes a different choice and prefers to play the game using some assistance or just watch it without playing it - it's an equally valid choice! - may watch it if they choose to?

Preventing adult, intelligent people from doing things they choose to do is limiting their freedom. It is something totalitarian regimes like to do, to limit or eliminate individual choices. It should not be happening in the free world.

The argument about waiting for 2 weeks before making the video is also lame. The RZX recording I made - and the video made from it - illustrate the game as it is now. It's 100% accurate and up-to-date. There is no reason to say it shouldn't be there or pull it off from a website.

If you release a newer version of the game, Allan, I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of it. In fact, if you do it several times and release several new versions of the game - I *will* record a new RZX walkthrough of each version, every time you update the game. In this sense, there is nothing to stop you from releasing new versions.

However, to release a game and say: 'Please don't make a video of it yet, because I may still change it!' is unreasonable to me. If you don't want people to show their completion of the game, don't release it yet! Or at least call it a beta release, or something, emphasise that it is not a finished product. Well, "The Perils of Willy" on https://itch.io/ *is* a finished product and you are selling it - or, to be exact, making it possible for anyone interested to download it for free, but also asking for donations. From this point of view, it may be the first version of the product, but it *is* a gamma-released product - otherwise you shouldn't be asking money for it. And if it is a released product, then why should people not record their completion of it - just because you think it's not a good idea?

I will not go into the other aspects of this subject - like the visibility RZX walkthroughs and videos give to a game - because they've been discussed on this thread before and, frankly, are quite obvious.

Since my RZX walkthrough has been taken down from the RZX Archive, I am going to make a video of it and put it online elsewhere, for the sake of freedom of choice and common sense.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
Also, because of the work i do with AGDx I am actually involved in some capacity with quite a lot of other homebrew games. I know the work that goes into these and time
I also know the work and time that goes into homebrew games, because I have spent a good part of my spare time in the last sixteen years designing them. And I would *never* ask anyone to refrain from recording a game of mine, or a project I worked on. In fact, I was happy to see recordings of my games published online, even though their quality - from the point of view of the efficiency and elegance of completing the game - was far from my standards. I would *never* think of asking someone to take them down from a website. I feel flattered that someone actually took the time and effort to record them.

In fact, *you* could easily feel flattered - rather than disappointed - that someone recorded your game immediately after it was released. It's just the way you look at it.

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
and again I see people racing to make rollbacks videos with little to no regard for the work, no comments or reviews.
Why "racing" is such a problem for you? If something is released, why should anyone wait to complete the game and record the way it's done? How long should someone wait? A day? A week? Two weeks? A month? A year? Oh, you did mention two weeks. But why exactly two weeks? Why not ask people to wait for two months, or two years? Any period of "embargo" on recording the game you might try to impose is entirely arbitrary. I don't believe members of the community should depend on the whims of the authors, who may actually have very different views on the subject. You say two weeks, but another author may say two months, and another one - two years. There is no objective reason for setting any particular "no recording" period. The only reasonable approach is that there is no such period at all - once a game is released, it may be recorded at any time.

Furthermore, are you implying that someone should write some comments or a review in order to be able to record a walkthrough of someone else's game? That writing comments or reviews "justifies" the person who makes the recording, or gives them the right to make a recording, because it shows "regard" for the authors' work? Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
They simply want to be the first to make videos on Youtube for their own hits.
I do *not* have a video channel on YouTube and I do not care about any hits. I made the RZX recording of your game because I love JSW games and I considered it the right thing to do and I sent it to RZX Archive as I always do. I had no qualms about it and I don't see any problem with *at all*.

The RZX Archive did not make a video of it - out of respect for your opinion expressed on the game's homepage - but *only* hosted the RZX file (and then took it down when you asked them to). The Archive *did not* have any hits on YouTube from the walkthrough of your game, because they did not make a video of it.

Having said that, I am perfectly happy for the RZX Achive to have as many hits on YouTube as they can possibly get! They are doing a wonderful job and deserve every success!

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
It's not a question of spoiling it for everyone.
Of course not. It's obvious that whoever doesn't want to watch the recording, they don't have to do it. People can choose whether they want to use a spoiler or not. It's their choice. Nobody should take the freedom of making this choice away from them by banning the videos!

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
It's a question of reconsidering exactly how I distribute the work in the future because although I am happy to do work for myself that I enjoy, share it with people who appreciate it,
I *do* appreciate your work. The fact that I recorded an RZX walkthrough of it - as soon as I could, prioritising it over other things I had to do at that time - bears testimony to it.

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
and help others do the same in a supportive, holistic way
If "holistic" means to you "refraining from recording an RZX walkthrough for two weeks if I ask them to", then this is definitely not the true meaning of the word.

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
, I think I need to consider that (1) there are people who take this model for granted and expect to just take what they want and give nothing back,
I did give you something back - a nice, smooth RZX walkthrough of your game. You don't seem to appreciate it, though...

highrise wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:16 pm
and (2) I am not willing to accept that this is 'just how things are'. I always believe things can be better.
Yes, things can be better if choices - like whether to watch a video recording of the game's completion or not - are made available to people freely, without an unreasonable interference from the games' authors.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

ok, well let me respond to some of these points. Before I say anything else, of course it is only my opinion. There is not a single suggestion of me telling people what to do - only of me asking them, and explaining my reasons. People have different opinions to mine and I respect that.

I also want to again make the point that I did not intend to single out this individual case when I expressed my opinion. i was talking about the practice in general. As I already said, my remark was flippant, I apologised for it, and clarified my position.

And to be clear - the reason I asked for the RZX to be removed is because unfortunately this method of recording includes a full version of the game, which I wish to only be available through my itch page so that I can monitor the downloads AND make changes to the zip file with bugfixes and updates. It's especially important that this happens in the first two weeks, because this is the time that I usually get bug reports and feedback. It's not a random, arbitrary amount of time, it's based on experience.

As I have said a number of times now. I do not have any issue with anyone recording the games. I have an issue with people using the rollback method to complete games. It's like playing poker but you are allowed to go back if you lose your money and bet again. In my opinion this goes completely against the spirit of the game, and it is especially annoying when it is done on the same day as the release. As I said, I'm not alone in that view, many authors have expressed the same opinion. If you are able to complete the game within the rules of the game, I would 100% welcome it. This is just my opinion, but it is dovetails well with the other reason for asking that such videos are not made in the first two weeks.

Furthermore, I am always flattered that people like to play my games. However, I don't feel flattered when people record videos of every single game that is released, make no observations or reviews of the games, and simply post the videos on Youtube. I am not singling anyone out here, I am speaking about this practice in general.

These are just my opinions. I don't have the authority to dictate what people do with games when they are released, any more than I have the authority to tell people they can't go out and buy a dozen packets of toilet roll. But I do have the right to disapprove of it, and I have the right to reconsider how I publish games, particularly when it seems I am portrayed as some kind of villain for wanting to control the distribution of my work in a way that ensures quality control (which is my right), and for believing that people should try to complete the games in an honourable way (which is just my opinion).
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Reading back through the thread, I do want to stress again that this is a debate I have been having outside of this forum for a week or so and I recognise that some of my comments appear to have been specifically directed at this rzx recording. This was not my intention at all. In my defence, the original comment by the way did have a smiley face next to it! At that point it wasn't meant as an entirely serious comment.

I admit however that I do have a beef with the recent trend for some Youtube channels to take every single game that comes out, use rollback to quickly complete the game within a day of release, then post a video of that with no creative input in the form of a review. They do this with every single game and it's clearly just a way to get clicks. I am still of the opinion that such a practice is cheap and lazy, and doesn't really contribute anything to the community. Just my view of course.

But to be clear, I don't believe that this recent RZX recording was done in that spirit, and it's unfortunate that this impression was formed. We are all a little more on edge than is probably good for us in the current climate, so hopefully we can put it behind us.

Peace and good health to all.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Rev_Stuart_Campbell »

jetsetdanny wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:12 pm
However, I don't believe a video of a game falls into the same category - I don't think it's protected by law the same way the original product is (or a version thereof, like an RZX walkthrough). A video is not a game, one cannot use it to play the game.

Since my RZX walkthrough has been taken down from the RZX Archive, I am going to make a video of it and put it online elsewhere, for the sake of freedom of choice and common sense.
I'm not at all sure your legal point is correct. Someone automatically owns copyright in their work, and in "derivative works" from it, which a playthrough video definitely is. However, nobody's actually saying you're a criminal. They'e saying you're a bit of an arsehole, and having read your posts I'd say the evidence is conclusive. You're risking further development of this and other games, potentially depriving everyone of a lot of joy, and for what? Because you couldn't just wait a couple of poxy weeks?
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Rev_Stuart_Campbell »

R-Tape wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 pm
It looks to me like it was an oversight or misunderstanding, and not a deliberate intent to disrespect the author. I suspect it won't be happening again with your games. I'm sure we can agree that it's no reason to give it the "and now you've spoiled it for everyone" treatment.
Sadly it now looks like that assessment was wrong on every count 🙁 I think highrise is being admirably restrained about it tbh.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
jetsetdanny wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:12 pm
However, I don't believe a video of a game falls into the same category - I don't think it's protected by law the same way the original product is (or a version thereof, like an RZX walkthrough). A video is not a game, one cannot use it to play the game.

Since my RZX walkthrough has been taken down from the RZX Archive, I am going to make a video of it and put it online elsewhere, for the sake of freedom of choice and common sense.
Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
I'm not at all sure your legal point is correct. Someone automatically owns copyright in their work, and in "derivative works" from it, which a playthrough video definitely is.
Well, when I put the video online - at the time of my choosing - you will be able to test the legal situation by trying to force me to take it down. Oh, wait a minute! - but you are not the game's author, so you don't have any right to it, do you?

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
However, nobody's actually saying you're a criminal.
Gosh, what a relief! I am SOOO grateful for this opinion of yours, Reverend! You called me an arsehole, but you must truly be a holy man yourself!

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
They'e saying you're a bit of an arsehole, and having read your posts I'd say the evidence is conclusive.
It didn't take you long to solve that one! Why don't you change your nickname to Sherlock_Holmes?

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
You're risking further development of this and other games, potentially depriving everyone of a lot of joy, and for what?
Wow, now you've really scared me! I didn't know I had such powers, it's terrifying! Depriving *everyone* of joy, like the coronavirus...

Do you really think someone would stop developing games only because someone else recorded a video of a walkthrough and made it available to the public? That would be so tragic... and what a sign of emotional maturity!

Rev_Stuart_Campbell wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 am
Because you couldn't just wait a couple of poxy weeks?
I would not wait only because *you* think I should, I can assure you of that.
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

highrise wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:01 am
We are all a little more on edge than is probably good for us in the current climate, so hopefully we can put it behind us.
I hope so too... especially if Rev_Stuart_Campbell desists from further comments which would call for a response.

highrise wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:01 am
Peace and good health to all.
Peace and good health to you, Highrise!
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