The Perils of Willy

People are still making stuff for the Sinclair related machines. Tell us about new games and other software that runs on the Spectrum, ZX80/ZX81, Pentagon and Next.
jetsetdanny
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
highrise wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:51 pm
Certainly there is no need to start talking about human rights or freedoms, that really blows it out of proportion.
This is something that has really riled me about jetsetdanny's reply.
If you are riled about my reply, it's because the truth of what I wrote is hurting you :lol:

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
It's one thing to have an argument and disagree about this whole thing, but positioning yourself as some sort of crusader-for-freedom here is just childish and silly.
You are entitled to this opinion.

And I would say that if someone tells someone else not to do something I believe that person is perfectly entitled to do, it is limiting their freedom.

And when people start talking about rules: a "one-week rule" or "two-weeks rule" or "whatever-time rule", it is the beginning of limiting someone's freedom systemically.

Once rules limiting the players' freedoms are invented and imposed, someone may want to try to enforce them legally. That's why it's better to fight them from the very start, before it's too late ;).

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
I could perhaps understand if highrise really tried to impose some draconian rules or made legal threats regarding his game
You can't be sure he won't ;) . And having to wait for two weeks is a draconian rule for someone who wants to do something immediately! :lol:

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
but this whole brohuaha is about a really mild request to simply not publish a specific thing for a couple of weeks. I mean - 2 weeks! Even if you think it's lame, unreasonable, or whatever, you could just go along with it for this really short period of time, out of simple respect for the author. It's something those aforementioned "adult, intelligent people" should understand without much fuss.
The problem is the original request on the author's website - as it is still formulated over there - is NOT "for two weeks", it is "for now".

"For now" can be mean for a day, or for a week, or for years. Coronavirus has paralised normal life for now. Do you know long it will take to go back to normal? You don't know when that "now" will end in the author's mind. Not even "adult, intelligent people" can know it if they just have a look at the game's website.

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
The other arguments presented are also rather weak. Rollback or longplay vid is nothing like a review/screenshots, so this comparison simply does not apply here.
That’s just your opinion. You are entitled to have it.

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
I have yet to hear about a serious review which gives away every plot point and ending. And the "nobody has to watch it" thing is a fallacy - we all know that once it's out there people are very likely to just click through it on the first watch and so are more likely to tick the thing off as "done". Why is it so hard to understand that this is why the "2 weeks" grace period might matter to the author?
It is not a fallacy. Exercise self-control! If you know there are some heinous websites out there which are showing videos of newly-released Spectrum games, and if you realise you may be tempted to click on them which will lead you to tick something off as “done” – DON’T EVER VISIT THEM! This may save your Spectrum soul from this filth! :lol:

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
Calling the recording of this particular game a "walkthrough" is also kinda amusing - as if The Perils was some hard-as-nails adventure game needing an insta-solution, instead of being just a simple platformer.
I find it curious that you find it amusing. If the recording of someone completing a simple platformer should not be called a “walkthrough” – then what should it be called? I am asking seriously, I would like to know what word you would use for it.

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
Now, again, there's nothing wrong with posting such, ahem, walkthrough at some point in time.
See – you said “at some point in time”, you didn't say “two weeks after the release”! This only proves the point about "for now" I made above.

akeley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm
But doing it instantly against the author's wish, and without any good reasons, tells me it's much more about the simple "first!" urge, than any grandiose concepts such as freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech may be a grandiose concept, but it is also a very practical and simple one (just like some urges). And it should be defended vigorously when the first dark clouds start to gather over it on the Spectrum screen! :!:
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Here's the reality. Once a game is out there, you are perfectly entitled to do whatever you want with it. You can archive it for personal use, you can poke it or hack it, you can stand on your head playing it, whatever you want.

but you can't publish that if you are basically just showing the entire game - especially if it's done on a channel that is in any way monetised.

Do you think, in all seriousness, that you could publish a 'watchthrough video' of yourself watching an entire episode of say, The Mandalorian? Do you think the argument would be that you were doing it for archive purposes, or that you were 'helping' people to know the ending? It just doesn't work like that, no matter how much you might wish it to. When you download a game, it is for personal use, not public.

This is why I am more than happy for people to present sections of a game, and give criticism and review, even if it's negative. That is because they are actually using their own talents to create something new. Publishing a video or and rzx recording of an entire game being played the way most people would play it, i.e a walkthrough, is absolutely not the same as that.

Whether you agree with this or not is not really the point. As you say, once you own a game you can do whatever you like. I can't reasonably request that people don't use rollbacks or snapshots to finish a game. If you complete a game I can't stop you from letting people know you have completed it, and whether you enjoyed it or not. But I can request that they don't publish themselves doing it in a way that effectively shows the entire game.

You are perfectly welcome to express your opinions about the game, positive or negative. That is the freedom of speech you talk about, which I value just as highly as you do. It absolutely does not give you the right to record an entire playthrough of a game and publish it, because there is nothing in that which expresses your views or opinions.
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djnzx48
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by djnzx48 »

When you're telling people what they can and can't do with your game, are you speaking on behalf of Matthew Smith and the author of the VIC-20 version? Are they allowed an opinion when people make derivative works of something they produced?
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Ivanzx
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Ivanzx »

To be honest, Allan, I deeply admire and respect the work you are doing with AGD and Spectrum programming in general, it is really doing good for the scene ;) but I can´t agree and can´t understand some things like this in particular, and others like when a programmer was told off in public because he published his game (for sale, 1,50€ or so) and did not put your name, when this has happened also the other way around ;)
I think we should be all thankful and not so picky when it comes to the Spectrum scene and how it is being alive, as many people are supporting and contributing in some many ways that this would not be possible :)

For example I have organised the last 3 ZX Devs and they took soooooooooo much time and also quite some money!! from my pocket. Many videos, blogs, etc wrote about the games being submitted for them and many of them did not even mentioned the ZX Dev itself. I never demanded anything to anyone, everybody is free to do, as long as they don´t disrespect or insult, etc. This is what you do for the love of the machine, basically :)

I know it is just my opinion, but those are my 2 cents :)
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Before I answer that, I want to make the very clear point that I am producing work which anyone can use for free, and I'm not 'telling' anyone what to do. The only thing I did was to ask that people don't publish the game being played in its entirety for the first few weeks. I wasn't forcing anyone to do anything, I was simply pointing out the flaw in the argument that they are free to do what they want with the game.

As regards the game itself, this is an entirely different discussion, and not one which changes the point I made. However, if I did have to defend it I would point out the following:

- no code from the Vic-20 game was used in the making of this game.
- the game is based on a reverse engineered version of the Manic Miner code. It does not use original source code, and is not a hack of any original code.
- although the levels are based on the Vic-20 game they are built from scratch and due to alternative mechanics, play entirely differently to the original.

I would argue therefore that the only issue would be the question of IP. It is possible that using the title of the game, and the use of the character may infringe in that instance. If this is the case however, this would not only apply to this game, but to every other mod of Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy, including the ones made by Danny.

As I said, it's a totally different argument. If someone wants to push the button on that nuclear option and get the game withdrawn, that is their prerogative. All I did was ask people not to post complete walkthroughs of the game in the first two weeks.
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and Ivan, with regard to the matter of the game made with AGDxMini. As you know, I put a huge amount of time into AGDx, and made it available completely for free for anyone to use. In addition, I made a number of patches for AGDx which add more functionality, in particular AGDxMini.

AGDxMini is also entirely free for anyone to use, but because it uses a large amount of code I wrote, I did set the following terms clearly:

1) That I should be given an 'additional code' credit, which is entirely normal when someone uses your code. The main reason for this is that I want people to be aware that it was written with AGDxMini so that they might seek it out and make games themselves.
2) That any games built using the code I provided for free, should only be available for free. Asking for donations is fine.

Games which use regular AGD or AGDx (without patches), use code by Jonathan Cauldwell. I do not, and have never, asked for credit or set conditions on that code, because it doesn't belong to me. I think the conditions I set on my own code, which is that it can be used to make free games but is not for commercial use, is completely reasonable, in particular when you consider how much free time I put into AGDx which I have never expected anyone to pay me for.

You appear to suggest that I have been guilty of not giving credit where it's due, or selling something that I don't have the right to sell. I'm not aware of this being the case, but if you have an example of this I will certainly do my best to remedy the situation.
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

and one last point. All the work I do, every game and every mod, has always been available and free to anyone who also makes homebrew games, hosts competitions or generally puts something into the community to help it grow. I am tremendously supportive of anyone that contributes in this way. As a matter of principle I would never expect someone like Ivan to have to pay for anything I've done, or even make a donation. For me that's a simple principle of give and take.
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Alessandro
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Alessandro »

jetsetdanny wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pm
Whether this urge is “irrational” or not, and whether their sense of self-gratification is “foolish”, is a matter of subjective opinion.
Well, I think I can be entitled to my own opinions, especially when they are motivated, and so far I think I have not been lacking in motivations...
jetsetdanny wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pm
Apparently, this urge and this gratification serve some purpose for those who do it; otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it. Why does it annoy you so much, though?
I think I had explained it in my previous posts, but anyway... I am annoyed by the fact that someone plays - or seems to play - my games not because they appreciate them for themselves, but just to add another "hit" to a sort of collection. I don't believe this is a form of appreciaton for what I do. Just "be the first, put your flag on it and show it off on YouTube within a day or so" is all that matters. That's why I think such behavior is irrational and foolish, and I do not like it.
jetsetdanny wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pm
Judging by your opinions, you look down on this kind of activity (“swallowing” a new game and putting the results on YouTube). Consequently, I understand you don’t have a particularly high opinion of the people who do these things.
I think you are jumping too quickly to conclusions here. I never wrote I despise people who do this, I get annoyed by this attitude.
jetsetdanny wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:54 pm
Why do you care about what they do, then? Let’s call them – for the sake of discussion and simplicity only – “losers”.
Excessive simplification often leads to misundertandings. I would never refer to someone playing games by cheating just to be the first to do it and putting videos on YouTube in the shortest possible time after release as a "loser", a word that - as far as I know since I am not a native English speaker - has a precise meaning, which is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "a person or team that does not win a game or competition", "a person who is always unsuccessful at everything they do", "a person that you have no respect for" etc. None of the above refers to the persons; again, I am criticizing an attitude.

Maybe people who do this are genuinely unaware that I could get annoyed by that. Maybe they are thinking they are not doing anything that could annoy me. Most probably in real life they are nice folks and we could also have some drinks or a pizza together, who knows. It's that particular behavior that annoys me, not the persons in particular. I just wish they could restrain from this absurd rush to "do it within a day or so and be the first to show it off" because, for the reasons I do not wish to repeat once more, I do not find such attitude respectful towards my humble contributions to the Spectrum retrocomputing scene. No need to make distinctions between "losers" or "wise men" or anything else for that matter, that were not in my intentions in the first place, anyway.

I hope things are clearer now because, honestly, I am getting tired of repeating the same things over and over and yet being unable to be understood. Maybe it's the language barrier.

As for reviewers - as long as they admit they cheat because they have no time to play a game in order to experience the game itself in much or all of its entirety, well, that does not bother me that much, as long as they have the honesty of admitting it as Andre did.
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Alessandro, I understand what you are saying completely. In fact, I think a lot of authors would agree with you, including myself.

The good news is that according to my research, an individual does require your consent if they are going to publish a recording of a walkthrough in its entirety, especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion. As I said before, it's like publishing yourself watching a movie. The fact that the game is not in a playable form doesn't matter because with a simple game like this, by the definition of 'walkthrough' you are showing the game being played in the same way that most people would play it.

This means that:

1) if you wish to you can set an embargo period whilst everyone else enjoys the game.
2) You can also decide who is or isn't allowed to publish full walkthroughs on the basis of how they go about it, i.e if they really love the game for example, as opposed to just trying to get hits on Youtube.

People are still free to complete games using cheats for themselves if they wish to, people can still publish pokes and review the games, they can do "let's play" videos, but they can't post a complete walkthrough without your permission. As I said, it's the difference between personal and public use of your work.
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Daren
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Daren »

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:09 am

The good news is that according to my research, an individual does require your consent if they are going to publish a recording of a walkthrough in its entirety, especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion.
Sources please?
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