Beginners Adventure

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PeterJ
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Beginners Adventure

Post by PeterJ »

Can anyone suggest a relatively easy adventure (Text or Graphic) to get me started with this genre of game? Preferably murder mystery themed?
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by R-Tape »

PeterJ wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:12 am Can anyone suggest a relatively easy adventure (Text or Graphic) to get me started with this genre of game? Preferably murder mystery themed?
I'd recommend The Queen's Footsteps

It's not exactly a murder-mystery, but it's definitely a mystery and there are murders along the way. I'm a text noob like yourself, and I loved it. Only on one occasion did I get stuck and end up manically trying to guess the verb. Don't let the 4 parts put you off—it doesn't goes quickly.

Also if you let [mention]DarwinNE[/mention] know you've completed it, he adds you to his hall of fame!
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

I have been giving this some thought... I will try and put together a list at some point...

It is hard to suggest a text adventure to get you in to the genre... because if you've not been in to text adventures by now, then there's usually some intrinsic aspect of the genre that will have stopped you. It's also hard for someone like me that really love those types of games to recommend games that would appeal to someone who doesn't love those types of games. :)

What you tend to get in threads like this is people recommending the one or two adventures that they played in the early 80s... Adventures that really aren't suitable for newcomers because they include all the irritations of the genre; such as sudden-deaths, illogical mazes etc.

There have been some recent games that have seemed to appeal to players who don't enjoy the genre; games like UnHallowed.

It's difficult to recommend a detective fiction game, because those sorts of genres do hit issues when it comes to interaction with NPC (it's often confusing and cumbersome).

Off the top of my head...

Murder, He Said by Jack Lockerby...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6720
...is a fairly streamlined detective adventure.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

R-Tape wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:29 am I'd recommend The Queen's Footsteps
I still need to get around to that but I did really enjoy Davide's previous game in that series.

There are several people currently writing text adventures for 8-bits which are, perhaps, designed for slightly more modern sensibilities. I know that's something that Davide does, and also people like Stefan Vogt; again a lot of people not into text adventures have said they've enjoyed his Hibernated game and the shorter Curse of Rabenstein.

(When I write beginner's-style adventure these days, I try to include some tutorial aspects... Deer Creek was specifically aimed at my daughters http://8bitag.com/games/deer-creek.html and is very straightforward)
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by RWAC »

Deer Creek is a very good one to start with.

I'd also recommend Escape by Tom Frost.
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6259
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

RWAC wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:48 am I'd also recommend Escape by Tom Frost.
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 96&id=6259
Indeed. The entire 6-in-1 tape used to be my personal recommendation (and that of many others) back in the day...
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.p ... 6&id=11355
...because it was specifically designed to take the player through adventure games of increasing complexity.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Ralf »

Peter, you don't mention it is going to be a Zx Spectrum game in your post. I guess you considered it obvious :)

Because for an absolute beginner to a genre who doesn't care about the platform I would actually advice to start with games on PC,
and to be precise early adventure games by Sierra.

Things like King's Quest, Space Quest, Police Quest, Larry etc.

They mix text and nice graphics which is good for a beginner who may consider text only game too much hardcore. They usually have good stories, lots of descriptions and vast vocabulary where you don't struggle with computer expecting "elevator" while you write "lift" :)

Actually being not a native English speaker I learnt a lot of vocabulary from them. But for me it was already in the 90s.

As for Spectrum I don't know. Actually when I owned and used my Speccy, I didn't play much text games in English because my English really sucked then and they were just too hard.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by oblo »

Los Pajaros de Bangkok was a very good detective-sque text adventure but it only was released in Spanish.

But if you don't mind to be a PC graphics aventure, Thimbleweed Park is a great adventure involving a murder case with Ron GIlbert as lead designer :)

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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by akeley »

8BitAG wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:30 am It is hard to suggest a text adventure to get you in to the genre... because if you've not been in to text adventures by now, then there's usually some intrinsic aspect of the genre that will have stopped you. [...]
What you tend to get in threads like this is people recommending the one or two adventures that they played in the early 80s... Adventures that really aren't suitable for newcomers because they include all the irritations of the genre; such as sudden-deaths, illogical mazes etc.
While the annoying intrinsics certainly might be a no-no factor for some people, in my opinion the problem is more of a general mindset. Most folks associate computer games with moving gfx and a controller - not walls of text and typing of many words (which you then have to retype ad nauseum) and this initial clash of concepts often creates an incomputable obstacle to a newcomer. Perhaps explaining that text adventures are really a different type of games, more of a strange hybrid of a book/crossword/scrabble/puzzle kinda thingy would appeal to a certain subset of previously text-shy folk (some people will simply never play them and that's that- just like I refuse to play rhythm games :)

The need of mapping is another big obstacle, which I'm familiar with from trying to recommend old RPGs to people. Not much can be done about it though. The illogical mazes are a pain, but not all games have them and they usually happen later on in-game. Sudden deaths aren't really much of a problem in the era of insta-snapshots and savestates.

Also, the lack of graphics shouldn't be considered a negative, but also explained as something that helps to jog the imagination. Most adults don't expect books to contain images, after all ;)

I'm not sure if Sierra's games make a good recommendation because they were a middle ground between traditional TAs and point'n click adventures and are a logical gateway in the direction of the latter. Great as they were, they can also be quite obstinate, with limited parsers and descriptions (at least when compared to the more advanced text adventures). At least that was my impression of KQ and PQ, I did quite well in LSL and SQ though so they were perhaps more accessible/logical.

My recommendation would be Valkyrie 17, which from what I remember is a bit of a spy-thriller. I also played it as a non-native speaker back in the day, and yet managed to get quite far (or at least I though it was far :) so I'd say it is suitable for beginners.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Turrican »

Maybe [mention]Andre Leao[/mention] could help because he has reviewed a lot on his blog Planeta Sinclair and there are some new for beginners.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Andre Leao »

Thanks for the heads up :)

For a beginner, the best new game indeed is Deer Creek. Does not have murders, but it is so intuitive and give all the tips a rookie needs to start playing text adventures.

On the Queen's Footsteps is another great game (I helped testing this one), but probably not for a rookie.

You also have The Revenge of Moriarty, by [mention]8BitAG[/mention], not as intuitive as Deer Creek, but a very enjoyable game.

And at last, I can reccomend three great games: Unhallowed, Eight Feet Under, and The House on the Other Side of the Storm. Not specific "murder" type, but they are brilliant. Mistery and sci-fi (8 feet under)
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by llewelyn »

I've been put off text adventures by the frustration they engender! Even as popular a game as 'The Hobbit' and one which I should be able to play through knowing the book inside out, had me angry with the constant bloody dwarf sings about gold response. What I hate most of all is stupid illogical puzzles that the programmers obviously regarded as excruciatingly hilarious, cannot recall the name of it but one I remember required you to have picked two shoots so that later on you could jump off a cliff as the only exit using your 'parachute'! Geddit? Ho bloody ho.

Also if it has graphics then either make them useful by supplying visual clues or don't bother. I would like a nice straight forward story like a Sherlock Holmes wherein the clues can be fairly deduced by careful observation and memorizing what was described in a previous scene.

I don't mind the need to map ones progress, in fact I rather enjoy it and usually keep a notebook and graph paper handy to make it easy to jot down ones observations and if necessary reference them to ones mapped progress so you know how many moves in which direction needed to retrace your steps to locate something.

I have yet to encounter a text adventure game I didn't give up in frustration and annoyance.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

llewelyn wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:02 pm it but one I remember required you to have picked two shoots so that later on you could jump off a cliff as the only exit using your 'parachute'! Geddit? Ho bloody ho.
Lol... pair of shoots. :)
I have yet to encounter a text adventure game I didn't give up in frustration and annoyance.
That's a shame. There are so many great ones.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Morkin »

8BitAG wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:30 amWhat you tend to get in threads like this is people recommending the one or two adventures that they played in the early 80s... Adventures that really aren't suitable for newcomers because they include all the irritations of the genre; such as sudden-deaths, illogical mazes etc.
Gawd, yes indeed, I've gone back to play a lot of old adventures hailed as classics back in the day, and have had my rose-tinted specs slapped firmly off my face..! :lol: And that sadly includes The Hobbit, a work of genius of its time, but I'm astounded that anyone actually managed to complete it without help.

As a very casual text adventure player, two (not murder/mystery themed though, sorry) that I enjoyed playing are:

On Reflection - a more modern text adventure with a style to suit - e.g. no dead ends, unfair deaths, like Deer Creek the objects you can interact with are highlighted, fairly easy, and you probably won't need to make a map

...and if you want a classic text adventure that's not too hard on the modern gamer...

Lords of Time - logical puzzles, and one of the few adventures I managed to solve. Again, I don't think there are dead ends in this one (for me that's sin #1 for adventures!).
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Joefish »

I haven't played many adventures recently, but I have to say I have some sort of block on understanding how a murder-mystery / detective story plays out as an adventure.

I get how a classic find key - unlock door - get magic sword - kill monster - take treasure - buy yacht - sod off to the seychelles type adventure works. And how solving puzzles opens doors to new areas and more puzzles. But how do they work that in to a detective mystery?

Is it all about detective themed puzzles that are contrived to unlock new areas? Or finding things that then cause characters to open up new areas?

I mean, I really liked Ersh's Sam Mallard game (it was a bit short!), but that worked by using a multi-choice control, and so a character could name another character or place and the game engine would simply add it to to your list of options. How does that sort of thing work in a text adventure? You couldn't suddenly have a new door pop open or a street appear out of nowhere because you matched up some fingerprints. I guess you could maybe have a transport hub that acts like your multi-choice menu; some sort of 'Heisenberg Taxi' that only goes to places you've already been told about! :lol:
Last edited by Joefish on Wed May 20, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by RWAC »

Morkin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:13 pm On Reflection - a more modern text adventure with a style to suit - e.g. no dead ends, unfair deaths, like Deer Creek the objects you can interact with are highlighted, fairly easy, and you probably won't need to make a map

...and if you want a classic text adventure that's not too hard on the modern gamer...

Lords of Time - logical puzzles, and one of the few adventures I managed to solve. Again, I don't think there are dead ends in this one (for me that's sin #1 for adventures!).
I played On Reflection a few years ago, having heard good things about it and got stuck near the beginning. Maybe I need to give it another go.

What annoys me most in adventures is when you go North and then South and end up in a different location than you started from!
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

Joefish wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm I get how a classic find key - unlock door - get magic sword - kill monster - take treasure - buy yacht - sod off to the seychelles type adventure works. And how solving puzzles opens doors to new areas and more puzzles. But how do they work that in to a detective mystery?
There are quite a few detective story adventures. :) Lots of different approaches that you can take to constructing one.

As you say, locations can be unlocked and accessed (by Hansom... or not so handsome... Cab!) as you uncover clues. That's a common structure in detective and mystery adventures... as you get further into the game, the list of possible places to visit increases. There's also nothing to stop you from having the usual text adventure puzzles to stop you accessing certain locations either. A locked door is just as much as a barrier in a detective story. :)

What is trickier to design is a decent system for interacting with the suspects, analysing evidence and solving the crime.

The example adventure I mentioned earlier, Murder he said, does this quite well.

You have an police constable that you can give evidence to and he'll take it back to HQ, process it and bring you the reports back.

Each of the suspects has a FILE on them that you can consult.

Interaction with NPCs is streamlined... you can SHOW them evidence and items... and QUESTION them. When you feel you have enough evidence then you can ARREST them.

In another example... Murder at Hamilton Halls... you can ask every character about other to reveal the information... e.g. ASK BOB ABOUT VICKY... That system works very well there.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Joefish »

RWAC wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:25 pmWhat annoys me most in adventures is when you go North and then South and end up in a different location than you started from!
I know what you mean - someone trying to make things harder to map, or just with delusions of how good an author they are!

>NORTH
You go north. The path bends around to the south-east and descends into a valley.


After about a week of trying you realise the command to go back the way you came is 'UP'.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Alessandro »

When I was 12 I completed my first text adventure. It was an Italian hack of Virgin Games's Ghost Town.

I played it together with my Dad, who at the time was my age now and just like me, never saw a text adventure before. He too was quite intrigued by it.

I guess that makes it simple enough for a beginning! :lol:
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by AndyC »

Five on a treasure Island.

It very closely follows the book so you can read along with it to get clues as to what you are supposed to do, without directly reading what you are supposed to type in the way might if you try getting a hints from a walkthrough.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Joefish »

I seem to remember reading a review of a more recently written detective mystery game, where you had a notebook that automatically filled itself out with clues, which you could then ask people about.
So again, that's jumping out of the context of the text adventure into a multi-choice list again; one that grows longer as the game goes on.
Seems a fairly common mechanic, although one that seems to work more smoothly in a point-and-click interface rather than pure text. And better on a system with the capacity to store loads of different, if irrelevant, responses to your questions.

I'm beginning to warm to the idea of the 'Heisenberg Taxi' though. So instead of an adventure that maps out London to let you walk around, Sherlock Holmes could visit little pocket-sized regions of London, then hail a cab and pick a location from a menu to jump from one to the other. You could make it more interesting (and more London-like) to have other secret links between mapped areas. So the cabs act as both shortcuts to areas you've already visited (like warps in action RPGs) and passages to places you've just heard mentioned. Not sure about going full point-and-click, but you could also add in some mini-games with a text interface, like making moves on a grid, swapping pairs, or throwing switches, with either a 'safe word' to exit and return to adventuring mode, or commands specific to that location to play the mini-game.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

Nothing particular new about the taxi idea. Gradually giving the player access to additional locations is an absolute staple in adventure games, particularly later point-and-click ones... e.g. Broken Sword, Monkey Island.

You may like the check out the Frogwares series of Sherlock Holmes games on PC, Joe.

They've done some very interesting things with the detective genre (although the later games in the series incorporated a little too much action and stealth sequences... I guess they would argue that the Sherlock Holmes stories themselves are more action adventure than detective).

The games really took the whole element of detecting from beyond a checklist to something else entirely...

Playing the games, you unlock clues which get added to your deduction board. Your objective is to link all these clues and information to make deductions... The interesting thing is that it's perfectly possible to link combinations together than make logical sense, but aren't correct, allowing you to jump to conclusions and arrest the wrong person. In the later games, where this was more developed, there were then consequences in further stories... and you even had moral choices to make... you could choose to let the criminals get away with their crimes.

Testaments and Crimes & Punishments are the best in that series. Many of the cases in the games are adapted from actual Sherlock Holmes stories.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Joefish »

Oh yes, I can see there are other mechanisms that have been developed. But you're also kind of making my point.

With classic adventures you can lock off areas until you have inventory items (key, shovel, rope, dynamite, sword, passport) to enable you to reach them. It's much, much harder to provide a convincing way of doing that with ideas or information as enablers (unless your whole game is made up of learning passwords!).

With mouse-driven interfaces it's very easy to limit what the user can click on initially and expand that, as it's another example of a multi-choice interface. And my 'Heisenberg Taxi' works just like that. The game limits your options and enforces them with a menu.

In a text adventure though anyone can type any destination they can think of to instruct the taxi driver and so go straight to the end of the story. There's no obvious reason for all the streets of a city to be blocked off to you just because you don't know anyone. You have to have a particularly peculiar narrative where the taxi driver refuses to take you places he somehow knows you haven't been told about! Or Watson prevents you leaving Baker Street until you've guessed where your client bought his morning paper or something. So, all the methods mentioned so far seem to break out of the text adventure method and rely on forcibly limiting your options.

Then again, a well-crafted adventure could let you use knowledge of a prvious play-through as an alternative to saving your game. Just let you go anywhere you want to pick up from where you left off...

Or randomise critcal names and locations so you have to play through and make notes yourself to find the important ones... But then you need to have loads of redundant location descriptions to waste the time of anyone who isn't playing properly...

I suppose one way you could do it in the traditional text adventure mould is to have people you need to talk to only available once you have some information on them, then disappear again, then re-appear somewhere else when they have something timely to offer. Legend of Zelda NPCs do this all the time, so that's one aspect of action-adventures that would work in text adventures.
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by Morkin »

Image

[Edit - sorry, couldn't resist]
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Re: Beginners Adventure

Post by 8BitAG »

Joefish wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 2:12 pm With mouse-driven interfaces it's very easy to limit what the user can click on initially and expand that, as it's another example of a multi-choice interface. And my 'Heisenberg Taxi' works just like that. The game limits your options and enforces them with a menu.
It's not a new idea; as mentioned, most games with transportation systems limit the areas you can visit from the outset.

There are lots of ways you can block players from visiting certain locations... and lots of ways that games do limit people... these aren't new ideas.

For example...

Games *do* sometime stop you from going to places by saying something like "You see no reason to visit that location at the moment." That is fine.

Or outside a location can be visited... so, it doesn't restrict your list of options for transport, but you can't actually get inside...

Lots of believable options for that... Some include...

Restricted opening hours... You can't visit until a certain point in the game because its closed.

Locations "locked"... You can still use traditional keys. Or you might need an object to show a doorman... a matchbook... a member's card... or just a secret password.

Locations blocked by police... You can't investigate a certain crime scene location because the police are still guarding it.

There are absolutely loads of way of blocking off locations in a realistic way. And, going back to another idea you mentioned, plenty of games do have moving NPCs who might be absent from locations until the point in the game where you are required to interact with them.

As I said originally, the main tricky aspect for implementing a detective story in a text adventure is how you handle conversations and interactions with NPCs... The rest is pretty straightforward.
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