New WoS and ZXDB

This is the place for general discussion and updates about the ZXDB Database. This forum is not specific to Spectrum Computing.

Moderator: druellan

User avatar
hitm4n
Manic Miner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by hitm4n »

Genuine question. That is fine, a good point. How does that require the ZXDB data ?
I don't have anything cool to put here, so i'll just be off now to see a priest with yeast stuck between his teeth and his friend called Keith who's a hairpiece thief...
User avatar
ketmar
Manic Miner
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:25 pm
Location: Ukraine

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by ketmar »

hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.
that won't stop 'em, tho. there are rules for using ZXDB already, and those rules weren't respected. you can add more rules, but it will be easy to ignore them regardless of their number. ;-)

besides, this will turn ZXDB into proprietary database. you can have either "free for anyone" (respecting the license, of course), or "proprietary", there is no middle ground there.

if anything, such clause will only make things worse. i don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here ;-). Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.
User avatar
djnzx48
Manic Miner
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by djnzx48 »

hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.
That doesn't sound like a good idea at all, and it would go against the entire 'open' nature of the database.

This situation reminds me of what happened with Wikia years ago. Despite a whole lot of wikis migrating from there after it became really obnoxious, it's always the ad-ridden Wikia articles that appear at the top of search results. Since their policy didn't allow the migrated-from wikis to be deleted, they stick around and continue to get updated by people who don't know any better.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by PeterJ »

hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:29 am Genuine question. That is fine, a good point. How does that require the ZXDB data ?
[mention]Ast A. Moore[/mention] is right about the WoS forum with posts way back into the past which are useful and of historical interest. The forum as you say [mention]hitm4n[/mention] does not have anything to do with ZXDB. We can split them into two separate entities.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by PeterJ »

ketmar wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:33 am I don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here ;-). Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.
You are completely correct there.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by PeterJ »

Ralf wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:49 am And this way we are going to have two ZX Spectrum databases comming from the common source being developed independently. This is going to be a nightmare :(
Agreed. This would be foolish. As [mention]Einar Saukas[/mention] says, if Lee and Richard have been caught out using ZXDB (which obviously they are quite entitled to do as long as the open source license is adhered to), at least use the latest version.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by PeterJ »

djnzx48 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:35 am
hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain.
That doesn't sound like a good idea at all, and it would go against the entire 'open' nature of the database.
Agreed, [mention]djnzx48[/mention]
User avatar
hitm4n
Manic Miner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by hitm4n »

For how many years are we continuing to tolerate this idiot? He just lies to everyone and accuses people of nonsense and GETS MONEY FROM IT!

Einars DB and everyone that has contributed to it, i'm blown away. Seriously, the ongoing work done here by a great many of you guys, including the running of this site is awesome. I'm all for the openess of it too, the sites that use and present this data in so many ways is awesone, tips sites, map sites etc. ZXDB for me is the point of truth, the complete data pakage, ever growing and updated. Top stuff.

I also agree, Einar must be using some infinite tolerance pokes. I don't have that poke and mine ran out years ago. Einar, i don't know how you do it.

You guys are right. Changing the policy would be silly, and won't stop them if any api can connect and get that data. I think the forum over at WOS is useful, it should survive, but i'd rather see Lee retire, take defeat on the chin than keep himself and his precious ego and credibility intact (credibility which, for me, was totally lost years ago, how is he still getting away with it?). Hindsight of course, but i wish Martijn chose someone else to take over WOS all those years ago.
I don't have anything cool to put here, so i'll just be off now to see a priest with yeast stuck between his teeth and his friend called Keith who's a hairpiece thief...
User avatar
Pegaz
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Pegaz »

ketmar wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:33 amif anything, such clause will only make things worse. i don't believe that anybody here wants a war with WoS. quite the contrary, we want this nonsense to stop (sorry for talking for other people, but i think i'm right here ;-). Einar did everything he could to make this happen. the ball is in WoS team ballpark now.
For now, they are pretending, that the ball does not exist at all.
The Einar response to Chandler's false claims was completely ignored, as was this latest finding on the use of ZXDB.
Anyone who thinks we are dealing with reasonable people is greatly mistaken.
If it were different, we wouldn't even get into this situation.
User avatar
4thRock
Manic Miner
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:35 am
Location: Portugal

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by 4thRock »

I think the best attitude is to move on.
Einar's detailed explanations have set the record straight.

I don't see the point in giving much more attention to WOS here.
Why not ask these questions there, on the WOS forums ?
Patrik Rak
Microbot
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:07 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Patrik Rak »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:26 am
hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)
Tons of historical and useful technical information on its forums. It’s a goldmine.
My thoughts exactly. If I think just about all those threads I was involved in, about timing, contention, RNGs, PZX, Z80 flags, AY noise, tape loaders, protections, path finding, and who knows what else, it would make me very sad if it was to disappear... :cry:
User avatar
cha05e90
Dizzy
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by cha05e90 »

Ast A. Moore wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:26 am Tons of historical and useful technical information on its forums. It’s a goldmine.
Erm, in theory: yes. Practically: no. I'm a semi-fresh resurrected ZX Spectrum user - kickstarted back to Sinclair in 2017 with the Kickstarter project you-know-which-one. While waiting for the ZX Spectrum Next to become true I fetched my own, old ZX Spectrum 48k from the attic and the journey began...

So anything between 1991/1992 (approx. the last time I used my ZX Spectrum) and 2017 was new to me and I began to dive into the most relevant resources on the web. And guess what? The WoS forum is - at least for me - completely useless. *This* forum is something that is really useful, searchable etc. - and of course some of the other Speccy related sites. Maybe it's easier for people who "grew up" with WoS and it's (I suppose) original forum to steer through that mess - but it's not for me, really.
48K/+/+/+/+128K/Vega/Next&80/81&88
akeley
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by akeley »

hitm4n wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am If this were me, i would write off WOS as dead in the water (its what i did when SpectrumComputing started). What can it give us thats not provided by SpectrumComputing? (I would like to know, seriously.)

I would re-write the "acceptible use policies" for the database usage and specifically deny all use by Lee Fogarty and the WOS domain. You lot are all being very diplomatic, but this sh*t with Lee has gone on for years and this is what it adds up to? This has to stop, he's taking the absolute P?s?...
I understand this has been going on for years and a lot of people are very emotional (ie %@$#&*!!1!) about it.

But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand, if we might talk about such in the retro computing world. It's very well known and is being linked to from all over the web. It's a main port of call for casual Spectrum users and fans, who are unaware of all the internal drama, and it will remain to be such for quite possibly a long time (unless The Management manages to break it completely). Even I still have to use it, because Speccymania Gamebase has WoS links inside.

For these reasons I hope they will sort their shizz out and provide ZXDB-up-to-date quality service to all these people. Those who know what went down, know, and that's that, and there's a record of it too. But I don't think it'd be wise to advance the toxicity, and conduct some restrictive moves, just best be the bigger man and let them do whatever. A crippled WoS is not good for the worldwide Spectrum community and popularization of this great machine.

And of course I hope that SC will continue to thrive and grow, because it's not only the best Spectrum database frontend but also a really awesome community.
User avatar
PeterJ
Site Admin
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by PeterJ »

akeley wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:46 am But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand
You are right there about the WoS brand (It certainly was the excellent during its golden years). The more that all of us can do to spread awareness (via social media and other means), and promote the benefits of all the sites that use ZXDB (Not just SC) the better.
Ralf
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2279
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Poland

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Ralf »

But the fact is that worldofspectrum.org is not just some website - it's nearly a brand
The more that all of us can do to spread awareness (via social media and other means), and promote the benefits of all the sites that use ZXDB (Not just SC) the better.
The problem is that there is a lot of casual Spectrum fans who don't follow the events too closely and still believe
that WOS is the greatest Spectrum website in the web while it's not true for several years.

When they want to discuss something or upload a missing game they will come to WOS, not here.

So yes, spreading awareness about places like SC is necessary. It's not going to be always nice as WOS even today has its own fanboys
who will be fighting you but it is necessary.
richl
Dizzy
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:17 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by richl »

I just wish some people would pull their heads out of the sand once and for all and abandon WOS entirely. This latest stunt by Lee just shows what a plonker he really is. At least he's slowing the site down so much now with all his bloaty "improvements" that it may encourage others to seek out other sites... such as this one!

Lee's antics (going way, way back - and don't ever forget his involvement with a certain near-mythical handheld item) caused a massive split in the Spec community and useful information has just ended up being lost forever or scattered amongst multiple sites and on various [walled off] Facebook groups, and let's face it, FB is a crap way of "storing" information anyway. How is this a good thing?

WOS was good because it used to the one, the definitive place to go to submit and share Spec-related information. It's not any more. Let it die. Please.

Regarding the useful gold mine of information on the forums, is there a plan (even if it's covert?) that's underway to somehow mine this, err, gold so that it doesn't get lost due to Lee's incompetence? Obviously, if it's covert then no-one's going to say anything... so I'll take that as proof that there is! ;)
User avatar
Mike Davies
Microbot
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

richl wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:19 pm Regarding the useful gold mine of information on the forums, is there a plan (even if it's covert?) that's underway to somehow mine this, err, gold so that it doesn't get lost due to Lee's incompetence? Obviously, if it's covert then no-one's going to say anything... so I'll take that as proof that there is! ;)
I have a full archive of the WoS forums, one I regularly keep up-to-date. So should Fogarty decide to take down WoS again, I'll make it available.
Last edited by Mike Davies on Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
akeley
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by akeley »

Ralf wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:12 pm So yes, spreading awareness about places like SC is necessary. It's not going to be always nice as WOS even today has its own fanboys
who will be fighting you but it is necessary.
It's obvious we need to promote the alternatives but my point is that WoS is not going away, like it or not. As you (and I earlier) say, some (many? most?) "normal" users will always end up there - and that's regardless of how much awareness spreading we might do. It's a simple function of search engine algorithms, that website's long standing fame and popularity, and the fact most people don't care about internal squabbles.

For that reason trying to hamper their operations (which was the idea my post was replying to) is unproductive, since it would only really harm the casual Spectrum fans. I believe eventually SC will overtake WoS in terms of mass popularity, but it might take many years for that to happen.
User avatar
4thRock
Manic Miner
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:35 am
Location: Portugal

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by 4thRock »

akeley wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:15 pm It's a simple function of search engine algorithms
Page load speed, timeouts and errors are very important today and I think SC does very well in that regard.
When you google for "zx spectrum forum" SC is well positioned I think.
Looking for specific games we also do very well.

I don't know about awareness, but SC is a major site and does very well on google searches.
User avatar
Guesser
Manic Miner
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:35 pm
Contact:

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Guesser »

akeley wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:15 pmsome (many? most?) "normal" users will always end up there
Nah, they're on Facebook...
richl
Dizzy
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:17 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by richl »

Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:13 pm I have a full archive of the WoS forums, one I regularly keep up-to-date. So should Fogarty decide to take down WoS again, I'll make it available.
That's good to know :)
namco
Manic Miner
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:55 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by namco »

4thRock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:43 pm
akeley wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:15 pm It's a simple function of search engine algorithms
Page load speed, timeouts and errors are very important today and I think SC does very well in that regard.
When you google for "zx spectrum forum" SC is well positioned I think.
Looking for specific games we also do very well.

I don't know about awareness, but SC is a major site and does very well on google searches.
Make sure those searches are on incognito mode, otherwise you'll get personalised/biased results.

As for brand promotion? How about regular SC specific (if possible) game jams? Maybe that uniqueness is that you host them?
User avatar
Vampyre
Manic Miner
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Vampyre »

I'm a bit annoyed still that they've chosen to complete ignore this and the "stolen data" accusations. It's showing a lack of class and/or arrogance to ignore something like that. To make it all about me for a second (there's a point to this) I've come from their side of things a few years ago, as some of the long-standing members of WoSF might recall:

When building the Your Sinclair reviews for ZXSR I, and there's no point sugar-coating this, completely ripped off the data from Nick Humphries YSRNRY website via screen-scraping. I tidied all of the data into ZXSR format and eventually published it to the ZXSR website. It didn't take long for Nick to find this out and call me out on it in the WoS forums. In my fragile defence I truly was going to ask Nick's permission but got a bit over-excited when the last review went in and shoved it all out into the wild.

I really, really regret doing it now and learnt a valuable lesson. YSRNRY had nowhere near the complete amount of reviews and the rest were all my own work - but I wish I'd just done it all myself (which I did after removing all the YSRNRY data). Nick was absolutely right to call me out and we sorted it out publicly and quickly on the WOS forums (I can't remember or not if I emailed him about doing it all in the public domain so there was total visibility for everyone). Nick was gracious about it all (far more than he needed to be IMO), I held my hands up immediately and we sorted it with zero ugliness. Point is - admit to making a mistake, try not to hide the truth, otherwise it'll be remembered for a loooong time (we all remember Kizza "Steve Davis Snooker 128k"). There are far too many clever people in the community who really give a damn about these things - so you will get found out and people have long memories.

It's still a shame YSRNRY went - it really was one of the great Speccy websites.
ZX Spectrum Reviews REST API: http://zxspectrumreviews.co.uk/
Ralf
Rick Dangerous
Posts: 2279
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:59 am
Location: Poland

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Ralf »

It's still a shame YSRNRY went - it really was one of the great Speccy websites.
Yes, I miss it too. And I miss Nick posting on forums too.

Nick wasn't a saint. He often got into long lasting feuds with other people when he could just ignore them.
But I still see him as a good guy, creating valuable content and generally giving to Speccy community.
User avatar
Rorthron
Dynamite Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Rorthron »

Although it's absolutely right to call Lee out over his latest ridiculous stunt, I think SC should otherwise mostly ignore WoS. SC doesn't need to try to outdo WoS. It should just keep trying to be the best site it can, and users can choose where they want to go. As long as we make sure others know SC is an option, let them decide. I'd be pretty confident a large number of them would choose SC, anyway. There will always be some that go to WoS, but so what?
Post Reply