New WoS and ZXDB

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XTM
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by XTM »

Hmmm... amongst the titles were Asteroids and Ant Attack ...

they're not going to rename them as Arse Steroids and Aunt Attack, are they? ;)
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Einar Saukas »

Turrican wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:32 pm Don't ZXDB changed the spelling of machine from 'Zx Spectrum' to 'Zx-Spectrum' ? New WoS too...
That's totally my fault.

My Spectrum machine has always been a Brazilian "TK-90X". Notice how the machine name is spelled with an hyphen in Brazil, as seen here and here. Unlike other countries, where I recently realized that exactly the same machine is commonly referenced as "TK90X" as seen here and here.

Because of this, all my life I have been writing Sinclair computer names with an hyphen: "TK-90X", "TK-85", "ZX-Spectrum", etc. I have always believed this was the correct way to spell it. Good luck trying to find a post from me where I didn't write it this way! You can also see it in my old posts at comp.sys.sinclair from last century.

All my life it never even occurred to me to consider otherwise, until I saw this post from last week and thought "Wait... what???"

I didn't answer that post yet because I'm still in shock from this revelation :)
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Turrican »

:D
Yeah. I am.Brazilian too. ;)
But when I saw that the new WoS is with same spelling...OMG!
I checked the old WoS ...and yes. They changed too. :mrgreen:
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Einar Saukas »

It won't surprise me if Lee Fogarty now claims he's Brazilian too.
Last edited by Einar Saukas on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Turrican »

:lol:
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

Now that it's irrefutable that the new WoS is using ZXDB, and that Fogarty is making changes direct to the database to bypass the changes/versioning layer of his CMS, and that the new titles added to ZXDB that briefly appeared on new WoS with their ZXDB minted ids:

There is no valid reason why new WoS can't support the ZXDB-minted id for titles that weren't in old WoS, thus preserving the ZXBD id. That's already been seen, as new titles not in old-WoS that briefly appeared in new WoS had the same id as those in ZXDB.

There's no valid reason new WoS cannot continue to support the ZXDB id of titles added to ZXDB since October 2018.

There is no valid reason why new WoS cannot now support newly minted ZXDB ids for new titles by WoS starting its primary key from a number agreed to through discussion with Einar and the team that maintains ZXDB. Einar has previously proposed how to do this, by setting the AUTO_INCREMENT value on the table to a higher starting point, and has laid out a path of reciprocity and mutual support of WoS id and ZXDB ids.

Since new WoS is recording each user-contributed change as a record, and that record when processed by an "editor" can be diff'ed against the existing record, there's no valid reason why WoS cannot produce a machine readable diff of changes contributed by WoS users above the baseline of the ZXDB data.

Since ZXDB uses the Open Database License licensing criteria (and WoS agreed to when they imported ZXDB) new WoS is obliged to make those changes of ZXDB data available back to ZXDB for use by other ZXDB-powered sites. Otherwise new WoS is in breach of those licensing terms. There is no valid reason for new WoS to not comply with ZXDB's license.

It seems pretty clear to me that new WoS is a ZXDB derivative, and they've spent the last 5 years building a CMS to allow the Spectrum community to suggest additions, corrections and changes to it (with an editorial confirmation step). Those editorially applied additions, corrections and changes, should then, by rights, also flow into ZXDB, as per ZXDB's licensing terms.

Step 1 for new WoS is to publicly acknowledge on WoS that it is powered by ZXDB, and that new WoS will fully abide by the licensing terms of ZXDB that they agreed to when they imported ZXDB into their database. The Spectrum community deserve this unambiguous declaration.


PS: I've archived the "New WoS and ZXDB" thread on the WoS forums at this URL: http://archive.is/NT34V -- currently with 3 snapshots. For the permanent record. I'm also in the habit of recording in an irrefutable way shenanigans involving the developer of new WoS -- as a defence to gaslighting.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

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WoS seems to be down....
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by 1024MAK »

Einar Saukas wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:00 pm
Turrican wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:32 pm Don't ZXDB changed the spelling of machine from 'Zx Spectrum' to 'Zx-Spectrum' ? New WoS too...
That's totally my fault.

My Spectrum machine has always been a Brazilian "TK-90X". Notice how the machine name is spelled with an hyphen in Brazil, as seen here and here. Unlike other countries, where I recently realized that exactly the same machine is commonly referenced as "TK90X" as seen here and here.

Because of this, all my life I have been writing Sinclair computer names with an hyphen: "TK-90X", "TK-85", "ZX-Spectrum", etc. I have always believed this was the correct way to spell it.

All my life it never even occurred to me to consider otherwise, until I saw this post from last week and thought "Wait... what???"
Sinclair never used a hyphen ever in the name of one of their computers as far as I know. The Sinclair Research Ltd range was the ZX80, ZX81, ZX Spectrum etc...
Some photos:
Original box:
Image
Image

Toastrack brochure:
Image
Image

And there are plenty of photos of the actual cases of the machines on line to check...
✓ Confirmed

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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

Rorthron wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:32 am WoS seems to be down....
It's a syntax error in the PHP script -- so Fogarty doesn't test changes in a development or staging area before pushing them out to a production server.

Interestingly enough, the file being edited is the software details page. If past behaviours continue, perhaps he's adding a regex filter for occurrences of zxdb in the data and scrubbing it. Because running a query on a database seems to require him to take down the website... :shock:
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by 1024MAK »

Image
WoSf is still up.

Mark
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Rorthron »

Rorthron wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:32 am WoS seems to be down....
And now it's come back online.

(As 1024MAK says, the WoS forum was never affected. Just the main site went down.)
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by ketmar »

[mention]Mike Davies[/mention] Lee will never confess that WoS is using ZXDB. his ego won't allow him. it is like you were telling people that Einar stole the data, and ZXDB is crap, and then suddenly saying that ZXDB is better than your work. and now you have publicly apologize to Einar and other ZXDB-connected people, and accept the fact that you're a liar. those are two things Lee will never do. so we'll be watching this show for a long time.

and i bet Lee will try to steal newer ZXDB data (changing ids), and will spectacularily fail at it again. do not adjust your sets, ladies and gentlemen!
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

ketmar wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:35 am @Mike Davies Lee will never confess that WoS is using ZXDB. his ego won't allow him. it is like you were telling people that Einar stole the data, and ZXDB is crap, and then suddenly saying that ZXDB is better than your work. and now you have publicly apologize to Einar and other ZXDB-connected people, and accept the fact that you're a liar. those are two things Lee will never do. so we'll be watching this show for a long time.
I can't disagree. But this is a licensing issue, as long as WoS continues to use additions and corrections sourced from ZXDB, he is obliged to mention that clearly on the website, and is obliged to feedback any corrections and additions WoS makes on ZXDB data. That's good for the community, and starts to bridge the chasm that's divided our community.

If the WoS community choses to allow Fogarty's ego to keep the community divided, and be willing party to license-infringement, that is their choice.

And I don't see Einar being vindictive, but welcoming of WoS's continued use of ZXDB. It's how standards emerge in tech: the second-placed organisation decides what becomes the standard, by choosing to adopt the one created by the first-place organisation. And WoS have standardised on ZXDB. That's a good choice.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by 4thRock »

Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:44 am [ test changes in a development or staging area before pushing them out
To be honest this also happens on SC sometimes. I know since I've done it myself :lol:
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by ketmar »

Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:28 am But this is a licensing issue, as long as WoS continues to use additions and corrections sourced from ZXDB, he is obliged to mention that clearly on the website, and is obliged to feedback any corrections and additions WoS makes on ZXDB data.
i don't see any way to enforce this except taking a legal action. and i don't think that legal action worth it: it is a money sink with a questionable outcome. ;-)

so let's have at least some fun out of it.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by djnzx48 »

Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:23 am There is no valid reason why new WoS can't support the ZXDB-minted id for titles that weren't in old WoS, thus preserving the ZXBD id. That's already been seen, as new titles not in old-WoS that briefly appeared in new WoS had the same id as those in ZXDB.
When did the new titles get added to WoS? I must have missed that when it happened.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Morkin »

4thRock wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:40 am
Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:44 am [ test changes in a development or staging area before pushing them out
To be honest this also happens on SC sometimes. I know since I've done it myself :lol:
...You gotta live life on the edge sometimes, eh..? :lol:
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

djnzx48 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:39 am
Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:23 am There is no valid reason why new WoS can't support the ZXDB-minted id for titles that weren't in old WoS, thus preserving the ZXBD id. That's already been seen, as new titles not in old-WoS that briefly appeared in new WoS had the same id as those in ZXDB.
When did the new titles get added to WoS? I must have missed that when it happened.
In Einar's initial post on this thread, -- if I remember correctly -- he points out that items with WoS ids higher than old WoS coincidentally showed titles that had the same id in ZXDB. And then they were removed.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Mike Davies »

4thRock wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:40 am
Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:44 am [ test changes in a development or staging area before pushing them out
To be honest this also happens on SC sometimes. I know since I've done it myself :lol:
On our hobby- and side-projects we all do it, until we get burned enough, then we evolve to deploying things in a more battle-tested way. :-)

But Fogarty has claimed that at his development experience running police websites and banks, and thus applies that experience to WoS -- at the kind of level he implies, you don't do this, ever.

Note: SC doesn't use Apache to serve up static assets, and I believe it's using PHP-FPM -- which is why SC is still quick loading when dealing with traffic levels multiple times higher than what currently takes WoS down. And on a fraction of the computing power. You (SC) are doing some things right, and better than WoS on a technical level. :-)
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by djnzx48 »

Mike Davies wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:00 pm In Einar's initial post on this thread, -- if I remember correctly -- he points out that items with WoS ids higher than old WoS coincidentally showed titles that had the same id in ZXDB. And then they were removed.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was only the banner on the homepage (advertising 24368 titles) that was removed. I can't see any mention of titles being added or removed from the new site since the initial import.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Ralf »

But Fogarty has claimed that at his development experience running police websites and banks, and thus applies that experience to WoS -- at the kind of level he implies, you don't do this, ever.
Well, he likes reminding everyone that he's a super-duper professional with twenty years of experience. And when you talk to him he will mention you a lot of cool sounding technologies that makes you feels he's right.

Unofortunately when he actually implements something it usually has a lot of problems. Like new WOS or earlier the new WOS forum engine.

I'll tell you one thing, people. Being a professional doesn't mean you are good at something. It just means that you do it for money.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by ketmar »

Ralf wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:35 pm I'll tell you one thing, people. Being a professional doesn't mean you are good at something. It just means that you do it for money.
exactly!

also, i have to admit that most "banks" and other "big names" sites are utter crap. slow, overloaded with scripts, with usability worser than a broken hammer, and often full of security holes. so if somebody is really proud of working on that...

p.s.: but i guess he really applied all that expirience to new WoS, so maybe he's not lying here.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Einar Saukas »

djnzx48 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:39 amWhen did the new titles get added to WoS?
They never did, but new WoS contains references to them.

At new WoS, BIFROST* ENGINE belongs to a series (of a single program) called "BIFROST/NIRVANA". Although both NIRVANA engines are new titles that don't exist in WoS yet.
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by Einar Saukas »

Since my last post yesterday, all software comments at new WoS have changed. I wonder if this change is somehow related to anything I wrote? :)

However it was a weird change. Basically all comments were changed from ZXDB 2018 back to Martijn's old WoS content, but discarding title and publisher from old WoS, and keeping IDs in comments taken from ZXDB 2018. It's easier to explain what happened if we look at an example.

Let's talk again about BIFROST* ENGINE. This was the comment from Martijn's old WoS internal file:

Code: Select all

Inspired by {ZXodus Engine|Andrew Owen [2]}.
This is old WoS site using this information:

Image

This was the comment from ZXDB 2018:

Code: Select all

Multicolor 8x1 Graphics Engine (18 char columns x 18 char rows). Inspired by {ZXodus Engine|Andrew Owen [2]|0026639}.
"Coincidentally" it looked exactly like new WoS a few days ago:

Image

Now this is the comment from today's new WoS CSV file:

Code: Select all

Inspired by {software|0026639}.
This is how it appears at new WoS now:

Image

As you can see, Lee Fogarty removed the multicolor explanation added in ZXDB 2018. He also removed title "ZXodus Engine" and publisher "Andrew Owen" from old WoS. He just kept the ID number 0026639 that was added in ZXDB 2018. This kind of change has been done to all comments in WoS now, thus reading comments at WoS don't make much sense anymore.

Frankly these attempts to disguise using ZXDB 2018 at new WoS are just making everything worse!


NOTE: Reproduced from my post at the WoS forum
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Re: New WoS and ZXDB

Post by polomint »

Jeez, just because he may have done something less good does not mean that the below is true;

`But Fogarty has claimed that at his development experience running police websites and banks, and thus applies that experience to WoS -- at the kind of level he implies, you don't do this, ever.`

We all work to the money and place we work for.

`Well, he likes reminding everyone that he's a super-duper professional with twenty years of experience. And when you talk to him he will mention you a lot of cool sounding technologies that makes you feels he's right.

Unofortunately when he actually implements something it usually has a lot of problems. Like new WOS or earlier the new WOS forum engine.`

yep

`I'll tell you one thing, people. Being a professional doesn't mean you are good at something. It just means that you do it for money.`

Yes, but some of use do it for money, and you cannot disrespect another person unless you have proof
So far, so meh :)
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