C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

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AndyC
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by AndyC »

Joefish wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:10 pm Why can't we have a machine with the 8 vibrant RGB colours, then 8 others with the orange, brown, pink, green, grey etc. as smudgy as you like?
Looks over at SAM Coupe and Amstrad Plus machines...

Yeah, if only such things were possible. ;-)
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

This is an interesting discussion.

I found this:

Image

If these palettes are accurate, then it means C64 colors are 1 black, 4 browns, 3 purples, 2 greens, 1 greenish yellow, 1 grayish cyan, 3 grays, 1 white. The problem is not just lack of vibrant colors, it's also missing most of the color spectrum! There's no red, orange, yellow, pink or blue.

The Speccy has the opposite problem: it covers the color spectrum quite well, but there's not enough difference between bright and non-bright colors. It would have more color variety if the non-bright colors were more washed out versions of the bright colors (instead of just darker versions of them).
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PeterJ
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

There is also an interesting document here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... e_graphics

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] mentioned how he felt NTSC had been a factor in the choice of colours which the above article mentions too.

This article (warning lots of adverts in this one) describes more:

https://www.britannica.com/technology/t ... TSC-system
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:19 am If these palettes are accurate...
They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use. When using emulators I opt for the colodore palette as that seems the closest to what I see on my actual 1084 monitor, but it's not a 100% match. There are other popular palettes as well, like the older pepto.

How colodore was calculated: https://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/

Here's an interactive colodore test screen, you can adjust the image like you would on a monitor: https://www.colodore.com/ (try turning the saturation to the max for some very vibrant colours)
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Ersh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:00 am
Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:19 am If these palettes are accurate...
They are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use. When using emulators I opt for the colodore palette as that seems the closest to what I see on my actual 1084 monitor, but it's not a 100% match. There are other popular palettes as well, like the older pepto.

How colodore was calculated: https://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/

Here's an interactive colodore test screen, you can adjust the image like you would on a monitor: https://www.colodore.com/ (try turning the saturation to the max for some very vibrant colours)
Just like I thought.
This second link nicely shows, that if the color saturation is raised a bit, purple, red and light red become clearly visible and recognizable.
Also, the distinction between orange and brown is much better, although it's not ideal. 
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by catmeows »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:19 am This is an interesting discussion.

I found this:
[...]
Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
If you restrict yourself to a particular mood/style, you could go away with 4,5,6 colors but if you want palette for general use, you probably want cover at least 9-10 hues with few levels of saturation and brightness plus at least rudimental black-gray-white scale. You can always cheat little bit but in the end you probably need around 30 colors to have passable general purpose palette.
With 16 color palettes, there are always cases when a particular palette fits your intent better than other one. For different intent, you would choose different 16c palette. So trying to decide which 16c palette is better is kind of futile attempt. Of course, thats just my impression.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ersh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:00 amThey are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.
I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:52 pm
Ersh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:00 amThey are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.
I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.
Well, If you looked at the link posted by Peter this morning, you would see that the palettes for all US/Japan machines look similar or less vibrant.
On the other hand, the palette of European computers (Amstrad, Acorn, Sinclair) seems much more vivid.
Maybe that NTSC/PAL factor is the reason for this, after all.
Also, on the same link you can see a picture of the C64 screen with colors, which look quite ok.
Slightly oversaturated yes, but washed out I wouldn't say.

Image
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PeterJ
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

[mention]Joefish[/mention] mentioned the 87 screenshots double page in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum And Commodore 64 Book 2012. If you can get hold of a copy, it is well worth the investment. I know which I prefer, but I can see the beauty in both.

There is a version here, but the scan quality does not give it justice.

https://archive.org/details/Sinclair_ZX ... 2/mode/2up

I think it was quite brave doing a ZX & C64 double magazine.

This is the Spectrum one:

Image

and this is the C64 one:

Image
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:52 pm
Ersh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:00 amThey are not. The correct c64 colours are highly debated and there are several palettes in use.
I can understand minor differences. However I never saw anyone publish a C64 screenshot that wasn't very washed out. Do you mean absolutely EVERYBODY got it completely wrong?

Bizarre.
No, I've already said in a previous post that I find it somewhat subdued (or washed out if you rather prefer that). I'm just saying that the palette you posted is wrong, they all are, even colorode. Colour signals are a complicated thing. If you'd check the links I've posted then you'd see it's not that straightforward.

Minor differences? No, they can be quite severe. The amount of RGB, saturation (which all should be pretty close actually), the brightness, the contrast, it makes a huge difference.

All screenshots you mention that you've seen has been taken by an emulator using a palette. Have a look at these screens, notice any difference? Some are way off like the old CCS64 palette. The closest to my eyes, like I've mentioned, is the last one Colorode. It's not perfect, but it's close.

Image
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PeterJ
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

Wow [mention]Ersh[/mention],

They are certainly big differences.
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

For reference; and do keep in mind that these photos aren't scientific in any way (it's a smartphone camera capture of a CRT after all). Here's the same screen taken on my 1084. First screen is with the monitor at 50% colour saturation, the second at 100%.

Now it doesn't necessarily look that close to colorode in these photos, but it's a much better fit with the naked eye. Also if you'd apply a CRT filter (hanover bars, scanlines etc) when taking a screenshot with an emulator, it comes notably closer.

Image
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Ersh
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

PeterJ wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:41 pm They are certainly big differences.
Sure are. :)
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Lethargeek
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Lethargeek »

catmeows wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:24 am Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
I see there some are much better than the others to represent the real world in games and pixel art instead of "covering the color spectrum quite well" (who the hell ever needs that for home computer except Sir Clive who, as we know, hated video games). Anyway, my picks are:
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arq16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/arne-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/dawnbringer-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fzt-ethereal-16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/fun16
https://lospec.com/palette-list/optimum
https://lospec.com/palette-list/ultima-vi-sharp-x68000
https://lospec.com/palette-list/zeitgeist16
OTOH the poor Spectrum has no proper colors for blue sky, skin tones, steel, clay, wood etc, while getting extra almost useless cyan and magenta.
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

PeterJ wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm @Joefish mentioned the 87 screenshots double page in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum And Commodore 64 Book 2012. If you can get hold of a copy, it is well worth the investment. I know which I prefer, but I can see the beauty in both.

There is a version here, but the scan quality does not give it justice.

https://archive.org/details/Sinclair_ZX ... 2/mode/2up

I think it was quite brave doing a ZX & C64 double magazine.

This is the Spectrum one:

Image

and this is the C64 one:

Image
Thanks for the link Peter, great book indeed. :)
Assuming the author took these screenshots in the same or similar conditions, there really isn’t too much difference or at least to me, the colors don’t look washed out.
It seems, that screenshots from various sources and types of palettes can make quite a difference.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Image

I made a mistake in the screenshot collage, here's the correct colodore. Sorry about that. :?
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Ersh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:47 pmImage

I made a mistake in the screenshot collage, here's the correct colodore. Sorry about that. :?
Sorry but I think this "fixed" palette still looks mostly brown and purple!
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Ersh »

Einar Saukas wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:20 pm Sorry but I think this "fixed" palette still looks mostly brown and purple!
That might well be. :) The point was; there are different palettes in circulation, none of them entirely correct. On my 1084 I can see a slight orange tint to a few colours, which may explain the "brown" argument. There may be a slight hint of purple in the light blue as well. In my opinion it's not that bad, and if the overall saturation is too washed out, simply crank that colour wheel to eleven. :)

If you hook the c64 up to a TV, the colours are of course dependent on the set. The 1084 is just my personal benchmark.
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Pegaz
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Pegaz »

After all, it seems that the differences between NTSC and PAL C64, definitely have an impact on the color palette.
I think this interesting article explains that pretty well:
http://hitmen.c02.at/temp/palstuff/
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Lethargeek wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:22 pm
catmeows wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:24 am Look here: https://lospec.com/palette-list

IMHO:

When you browse the palette list, you quickly realize that universal 16 color palette is rather impossible.
I see there some are much better than the others to represent the real world in games and pixel art instead of "covering the color spectrum quite well" (who the hell ever needs that for home computer except Sir Clive who, as we know, hated video games).
You missed the point. I never said the Spectrum's specific choice of color tones was "right". On the contrary, I mentioned it has a serious flaw: there's no meaningful difference between bright and non-bright colors. They are not different color tones, just slightly darker versions of exactly the same colors. It means the Spectrum palette only has 8 colors in practice! You can try it yourself: load any Spectrum screenshot into ZX-Paintbrush, then remove all brightness. It will look basically the same.

But my exact point was that, when a general purpose computer can only have a very small fixed palette, it works much better to chose a wide variety of colors spread over the color spectrum, regardless of what specific colors were chosen.

The link you mentioned illustrates this point quite well. In pixel art, a small palette that's mostly different tones of brown and purple, could be great to provide a unique atmosphere for a certain level of a game. However it's not such a great idea to keep using these colors for an entire game. And it's a terrible idea to always use only these colors for absolutely everything, all the time.

The book images that Peter posted clearly show more graphic variety in Spectrum screens, despite using essentially half the palette size.
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Einar Saukas
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Einar Saukas »

Out of curiosity, here's how the Spectrum palette would look like with 16 truly distinct colors:

Image

At the center is the real Spectrum palette.

At the top, I kept the 8 original non-bright Spectrum colors, then added another 8 exactly intermediate colors between them.

At the bottom, I kept the 8 original bright Spectrum colors, then added another 8 exactly intermediate colors between them.

Both new palettes are almost identical because, as I said before, the Spectrum palette only has 8 colors really.

Instead of FLASH and BRIGHT attributes, the Spectrum could simply use 4 bits for INK color and 4 bits for PAPER color. Absolutely everything else would work exactly the same, but the graphics would have improved dramatically...
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Lethargeek »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:26 am You missed the point.
No.
Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:26 am But my exact point was that, when a general purpose computer can only have a very small fixed palette, it works much better to chose a wide variety of colors spread over the color spectrum, regardless of what specific colors were chosen.
And that was exactly what i disagreed with. The specific colors choice corresponding to most common real world objects does matter much more than wide distribution of these colors over the whole spectrum.
Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:26 am The link you mentioned illustrates this point quite well.
No, it was about the examples i picked there to illustrate the importance of specific choice of colors for an "universal" fixed palette.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by Lethargeek »

also even the standard existing spectrum palette could be improved a bit with uneven brightness for different colors:
Image
Image
Image
Image
text becomes more readable, pictures less flat, more natural
almost any pic becomes better with this palette imo

this is why i use it in my emulator as a default 8-)
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by XTM »

Einar Saukas wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:00 am Out of curiosity, here's how the Spectrum palette would look like with 16 truly distinct colors:

Image
These look great indeed. I like how you (probably) spent a minute to move the letters of the word "Spectrum" back to their proper positions. Offtopic fun fact: The original picture of various colour palettes you posted a few pages back, where it said "Sprectrum", was posted by the infamous MacDeath who frequently badmouths the Speccy mostly on the CPCWiki forums but also in YouTube comments. He's the final boss in Oilboy 5, if you remember that game title ... so "Sprectrum" was definitely not a typo.
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Re: C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

Post by PeterJ »

I love the fat cat at the bottom [mention]Lethargeek[/mention]! Is that a loading screen from a game or just art?
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