Joystick options in 2021

[Jbizzel]

Please don't say use the keyboard

I had a couple of joysticks that crumbled to dust and are no more.

I have one left, a "switch joy" and it still works. But it's not the best and is sounding creaky. I also made my own micro switched joystick from arcade parts - it works well for most things but it's massive

There seems very few options these days for a modern replacement. Am I missing something? What are the options please?

[Joefish]

These ship from China so can take a couple of months to arrive:

https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/ArcadeR ... category=0

But they are brilliant.

[Ast A. Moore]

But they are brilliant.

Interesting. How loud is the clicking? (Are they clicky?)

[patters]

I find it very hard to go back to a joystick after gamepads. In fact I always hated joysticks even back in the day. I recall I used to shout in frustration at my Cheetah joystick when its suckers would move just at a critical part of Flying Shark for instance. I still have a Competition Pro that we got along with the 16K Spectrum that's so old it has leaf springs instead of microswitches (weren't they famous for those in their day?).

These days I use a Mega Drive pad with the Spectrum (B is fire), and I also tried a Master System pad. Almost all Master System pads tend to be damaged though, the plastic moulding around the edges of its square D-pad is very thin and gets brittle. The Mega Drive is probably a better joypad option. Its D-pad results in fewer accidental diagonals - which in something like R-Type usually result in death.

Another usability issue in modern times is the 80s standard of Up to jump, or Up to accelerate. To help with this I opened my Master System pad and soldered it so the second button also activates Up. Super Hang-On, though basically an impossibly hard game, is just give-up-and-go-home hard without this.

[cmal]

These ship from China so can take a couple of months to arrive:

https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/ArcadeR ... category=0

But they are brilliant.

Thanks [mention]Joefish[/mention] - Good to know.
Just yesterday I was checking out these joysticks on Retroradionics when I was looking into the ZX Spectrum Omni. I'm considering getting one for the Spectrum Next which I ordered from the 2nd Kickstarter. I notice there's another similar joystick for $50 on Retroradionics. Do you know what the difference is between the $25 and the $50 models?

$50 model:
https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/DELIVER ... category=0

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried these joysticks on a Spectrum Next?

[flatduckrecords]

[mention]iadvd[/mention] was working on a cool wireless Kempston-compatible interface project. I also did some experimenting with rewiring a MegaDrive wireless adapter (pretty straightforward but I did manage to fry a dongle before seeking [mention]1024MAK[/mention]’s electronics expertise!)

That would open up your options to Bluetooth controllers such as DualShock and Xbox, or the RetroBit licensed/recreated Sega pads – with the caveat noted by Mark that it would need to be a later model joystick interface with the correct polarity and +5v supply.

You mentioned you already built your own, but Monster Joysticks are quite good. Self-assembly kit, the deluxe model comes with clicky genuine Sanwa arcade joystick and “silent” Sanwa buttons. It also has a toggle switch that turns the second fire button into an alternative “up” (i.e. jump), handy for platform/racing games as [mention]patters[/mention] mentioned. It’s also a true second fire button for the (very very rare?) games that support it.

[Ast A. Moore]

I recall I used to shout in frustration at my Cheetah joystick when its suckers would move just at a critical part of Flying Shark for instance.

Amen, brother! I had the exact same experience with the exact same joystick in . . . Flying Shark (just about the only game that I felt required a joystick).

[patters]

Haha, I remember on mine occasionally the buttons wouldn't detect the press properly. The top button on the stick was beyond crap, and the trigger wasn't great for repeatedly firing. For Flying Shark you had to use the more 'clickey' dome switched buttons on the base, but it was absolutely knackering.

[Ast A. Moore]

I used to bend the leaf contacts for the top button(s) so they were a little closer together and easier to trigger on a regular basis. The bottom dome buttons always felt a little weird; don’t remember using them much.

I still have the Cheetah and even took it out recently (when I was adjusting the delay for the long press to drop bombs in Yankee). Noticed that some of the diagonal directions were too tight to engage reliably. Tried to address that issue, too. Managed to make it a little better, but it’s still a far cry from decent, let alone perfect.

Oh, just remembered another game that I used to play with a joystick a lot: Savage, Part II.

[Jbizzel]

https://www.instructables.com/Arduino-l ... pectrum-u/

Here's another option. I happen to have nearly everything for this lying around the house. Seems a bit of a messy solution though since you'd have to have the Arduino as the middle man.

[Alcoholics Anonymous]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried these joysticks on a Spectrum Next?

They should work. The thing to know is that the joystick connector on the spectrum next is a sega connector and not an atari one. The sega connector is compatible with 1- or 2- button atari sticks. The problems can begin if the joystick draws power -- that usually happens if the stick supports an auto-fire feature. Power on a sega connector comes from pin 5 whereas on an atari it's pin 7. The next can still supply a fair bit of current through pin 7 so that isn't really an issue - the problem is that pin 7 is strobed so pin 7 is mostly at +3.3 but toggles to 0 while the joystick state is read. Anyway djorde knows about this since he fixed his sticks at some point last year. I don't know if it's these particular sticks but you can always ask him.

The sega md pads may be preferable for the Next if you're not married to an actual stick. The reason is the next can read all 11 buttons and can assign buttons to the keyboard so there is a usability advantage that way.

[Jbizzel]

Another usability issue in modern times is the 80s standard of Up to jump, or Up to accelerate. To help with this I opened my Master System pad and soldered it so the second button also activates Up. Super Hang-On, though basically an impossibly hard game, is just give-up-and-go-home hard without this.

This is a brilliant idea!

[Jbizzel]

The sega md pads may be preferable for the Next if you're not married to an actual stick. The reason is the next can read all 11 buttons and can assign buttons to the keyboard so there is a usability advantage that way.

Sounds like sega pads work out if the box for the spectrum and the next with multiple button support.

I am thinking about getting an N Go board (next clone) it would be nice to have something that worked with both

[Jbizzel]

These ship from China so can take a couple of months to arrive:

https://retroradionics.co.uk/#!/ArcadeR ... category=0

But they are brilliant.

These look awesome, and the price seems very reasonable for what they are!

I wish the site explained what the different options meant eg spectrum config Vs 64? Are these not the same, or is spectrum the amstrad wiring?

[azesmbog]

For general information
Some modern games use more than one Fire button.
In ZX Uno, Kempston Joy uses another additional button.
My FPGA board uses an original NES joy with three buttons and a couple of games use them.

[Alcoholics Anonymous]

Sounds like sega pads work out if the box for the spectrum and the next with multiple button support.

If going the md pad route, make sure it's going to work with the particular joystick interface you're using. These things are largely working by accident on traditional spectrums. You can damage some joystick interfaces by plugging in md pads; Ben Versteeg wrote about it in one of his blog posts and this is true for some other machines as well like the c64.

Ben posted another video with a working wired md pad using one of his joystick interfaces:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKejHoxcps

In it he mentions that pin 7 must be disconnected for it to work. This doesn't make much sense to me as then the md pad would receive no power and the controller needs power to execute its internal state machine. I don't know if these pads were designed to operate as atari sticks without power applied but I am thinking Ben may have misspoke.

How it's supposed to work is pin 7 (the select signal) is held high (5V) so that the only state read is the four directions and two fire buttons. Pin 5 supplies 5V to the device. What I think happens is although pin 5 is disconnected, power is still being supplied through pin 7 somehow. If the controller works with no power supplied at all as Ben states then this might be a feature of a specific controller.

There is also different amounts of power drawn by different controllers. I think you can expect around 30mA from wired md pads but the new wireless ones like the 8bitdo 2.4g are probably a lot higher, maybe around 100mA (and these definitely won't work without a source of power). I don't know what it is exactly so I am comparing it to the esp8266 which draws 170mA (300mA bursts) when transmitting. This is what damages the c64 joystick port as the current supplied comes from one of the CIA chip's outputs.

tldr; find out if an md pad will work with the particular joystick interface you are using on a traditional spectrum before buying.

[Jbizzel]

its tricky because I want 1 controller ideally for the following:

Spectrum Divide AY2k20 and I have a Kempstone interface
c64 (BMC64 with GPIO joy port)
Possibly Spectrum Next in the future

1 controller to rule them all!

Maybe I need to accept more that one device is needed.

[1024MAK]

Sounds like sega pads work out if the box for the spectrum and the next with multiple button support.

If you have not already read this topic, and my points within it, please do.

Not all ZX Spectrum joystick interfaces are the same. The voltage polarity on the direction and fire button lines varies depending on which version of circuitry is used in the interface. This does not matter for normal joysticks (which are just a collection of five or more switches) but with the later joypads / pads / direction controllers, these have a chip inside. Silicon chips tend to self destruct if they experience the incorrect polarity on any of their pins. And it is also possible that a later joypad / pad / direction controller could damage the joystick interface.

Please note that I’m not trying to scare people. I’m just pointing out that you should think about what you are trying to do before you just plug and try to play.

Mark

[1024MAK]

In it he mentions that pin 7 must be disconnected for it to work. This doesn't make much sense to me as then the md pad would receive no power and the controller needs power to execute its internal state machine. I don't know if these pads were designed to operate as atari sticks without power applied but I am thinking Ben may have misspoke.

How it's supposed to work is pin 7 (the select signal) is held high (5V) so that the only state read is the four directions and two fire buttons. Pin 5 supplies 5V to the device. What I think happens is although pin 5 is disconnected, power is still being supplied through pin 7 somehow. If the controller works with no power supplied at all as Ben states then this might be a feature of a specific controller.

If the chip is a CMOS type, the protection diodes on the input lines can feed power to the positive power pin of the chip. If the chip can operate at a low current, it may well work. As long as the source of the power can supply the current and maintain the voltage. But it’s rather hit and miss and definitely not what any circuit designer intended. And this only helps if the polarity on all the joystick interface input and common pins is correct.

Mark

[Jbizzel]

So I decided to refurbish my original joystick to see it I could improve it. The fire button micro switch was broken so I replaced that, cleaned out all the black plastic dust and re lubed everything lol. Already a massive improvement.

But that made me realize how poor the other micro switches are. They are bent and the switch is weak. I will order some more switches to replace these.

[Jbizzel]

[mention]cmal[/mention] this is my homemade joystick. I bought a cheap wooden box from the works and painted it gray. I think it looks quite good.

[Joefish]

RetroRadionics joysticks for $25 cost around another $20 to ship from China. The more expensive ones, if you note the 'shipped from USA' label, are already imported in bulk into the USA and so are cheaper and quicker to ship to US residents.

ZX Renew in the UK do something similar, offering joysticks for £35 ,but as you can see, they're mostly marked 'Pre-Order' as they don't have any holding stock at the moment. https://zxrenew.co.uk/ArcadeR-c58672270

If you want more details there's an 'ArcadeR' Facebook group where the details are discussed, and there's a PDF manual if you want to try swapping wires and buttons around inside the joystick, or rotating the stick so the buttons are to the side. They now ship with a Y-cable to join both fire buttons together. To rig one as UP you'd have to meddle inside it.

I don't think the makes and models you pick makes any difference, although there is something about a jumper position to provide a correct resistor. I think it's to with auto-fire or fire-2 configuration on a Commodore machine (64 or Amiga).

The joystick is a bit clicky; the buttons much less so. And you can customise them with parts from https://www.arcadeworlduk.com/ so long as the buttons are the shallow type.

I like your wooden one, and the Monster ones are pretty good. I'm just shocked at the cost of plastic project boxes these days for making your own.

[akeley]

They really should say what "pre order" means, it's a poor form. Shipping from China can take months atm.

[FOZ]

I have an ArcadeR joystick and on my N-GO I am finding button 2 does not work, however button 3 does. This is a two button joystick, so button 3 is activated via switch on the joystick to make the physical button 2 act as button 3. I realize this is an old ish thread, but thought I would try asking if anyone has had any issue like this or has thoughts? Thanks!