Is the NEXT an emulator?

The Speccy's spritely young offspring. Discuss everything from FPGA to ZX
Alcoholics Anonymous
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

PeterJ wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:39 am Could I ask @Alcoholics Anonymous, in lay man's terms are you saying that because of the issues in emulating PAL that this is the reason why a handful (and it is a very small number in the scale of things) of programs don't work as expected.
No, the video timing in the spectrum next is very accurate. We have a minor discrepancy in the +3 contention but it will get ironed out when I get around to looking into it. There is one game not displaying properly but I think the problem is elsewhere - we have very high confidence in the contention, video timing and video generation for all models (48k, 128k, pentagon) except for the minor problem in the +3.

The problems on hdmi are separate and has nothing to do with the accuracy of the spectrum next's hardware. This is due to the mismatch between hdmi requirements and the spectrum's video timing as you're saying. hdmi tvs do not tolerate even minor deviations from the hdmi frame so the current solution in the next hardware is to change the spectrum's video timing slightly to match the hdmi requirements. This breaks the precise relationship between the cpu and video generation that some demos and games rely on. This is the problem that will be addressed when the display hardware is revisited.
Is the failure in some of the tests which are run to check the implementation of z80 features and other stuff due to this also, or is this due to errors made in the (programming - is it still called that?) of the FPGA?
The z80 in the next (and the uno, the mister, anything without a physical z80) is a clone. This means it was created to behave the same as the z80 but it's not using the same circuit. It's very much like the difference between an AMD x86 and an Intel x86. Intel defines what the instructions do and AMD makes sure the instructions do the same thing but they are not the same circuit at all.

In principle, the behaviour of a clone can be made identical to a physical z80 but that depends on the implementer knowing about all the observable behaviour that can be seen on a physical z80. The particular clone that everyone is using is derived from the T80 which was originally created about 20 years ago. It has been used all over the place. In that time, bugs have been found and have been corrected by various people differently with some noticing different bugs than others.

With the known bugs removed, the t80 works very well as a clone implementing all the documented and undocumented instructions and generating proper bus cycles for external hardware. However there is some esoteric behaviour that was only recently found (well recent in retro terms :) ). As is the want in emulation circles, once those were found test programs were created to find out what various instructions did with the new undocumented flags behaviour. It turns out various z80 versions behave a little differently: the nmos z80 is different from the nec z80 is different from the cmos z80, etc. This has to do with discrepancies in some internal implementation detail. Anyway, whereas the z80 versions I listed were a little different, the T80 is a lot different. That's not surprising since the implementer wouldn't have known about this.

So some people have gone to the effort to patch up the t80 to be almost the same as, say, the nmos z80. This comes at some expense since these patches are usually bolt-ons to the hardware and doing things that way makes the implementation bigger on an fpga, eg. We could copy those things but we can't do it haphazardly because (1) becoming bigger is an issue for us as the fpga is near capacity and (2) we have made other changes required that fix up the bus cycles for hardware compatibility. None of these other projects are concerned about hardware compatibility as they don't have external interfaces so it's doubtful they've fixed that or even know about all the problems. So we have a temporary situation where the Next doesn't implement some undocumented flags behaviour as well as some other T80 implementations.

And now a word on the importance of those undocumented flags. It's approximately zero as far as I can tell. The undocumented flag behaviour is not particularly useful nor was it known until recent times. Software doesn't and won't depend on it. If it does you could end up in a situation where some software only runs on an nmos z80 or one of the other specific z80s.

What I am more concerned with is the possibility of other functional bugs being found in the T80. With a 20 year history, the chances should be small but guess what? I know there is at least one more because I can see it in the bus cycles and it shows up in hardware compatibility. In those 20 years, I think it's been very rare that the T80 has been used in a hardware setting so I think that's why we are seeing such things.

I will spend the time to go through the whole processor but when depends on priorities. The hardware bug is important; the undocumented flags not so much. Honestly I don't like the T80 implementation very much and I'd rather just create a new z80 clone from scratch but that is a giant time sink.
There seems to be a view here that maybe some FPGA implementations are more accurate than others. Why is this? I notice that some cores only support one video standard such is VGA. Does this make it easier for the developer to get more accurate 'emulation'?
Yes VGA and RGB are really easy to target because they will tolerate the spectrum video signal unchanged. HDMI is a more difficult problem and that's why it hasn't been done before in the spectrum fpga scene. The mister is an exception but that is a machine with a giant fpga that has the resources to do whatever you want.

For the spectrum, other discrepancies have to do with the quality of the ula implementation and how the differences in the spectrum models is handled. Remember that the 48K spectrum, 128K spectrum and +3 are very incompatible with each other.

The Next's hardware is very accurate and it does a lot of new things to handle hardware and software compatibility with the original machines. It is quite annoying to read uninformed comments about incompatibility issues; real demonstrable issues are welcome -- we 've spent a lot of time making sure the machine has very high compatibility and that process hasn't stopped.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Stefan123 »

So this is yet another thread with the usual suspects spreading the same old negativity about the Spectrum Next over and over again. So predictable and so depressing to read. Why not create a separate topic for all the nice people disliking the Next?
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by akeley »

[mention]Stefan123[/mention] I totally understand why it might seem so but perhaps we could move past that and have a resonable discussion. I've seen zillion similar ones which lead nowhere because both sides bristle up and it ends up in a mess. But ultimately this hurts both camps, because it hinders the advancement which is often helped by talking about issues.

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] Please mate, let's keep it strictly technical. No need to bring Dizzy and other unrelated grievances into this ;)

Any chance you could make a little pack with these demos and test programs and upload it somewhere? I'd like to try them on MiSTer later today, I have the games but not the other stuff.
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:41 am Remember that the 48K spectrum, 128K spectrum and +3 are very incompatible with each other.
This is oft repeated, but actually has nothing to do with the issues because it's to be expected. What people usually mean is incompatibilites between corresponding cores/clones/emus and particular hardware, eg ZX 48k FPGA mode vs 48k model, etc.

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:41 am The Next's hardware is very accurate and it does a lot of new things to handle hardware and software compatibility with the original machines. It is quite annoying to read uninformed comments about incompatibility issues; real demonstrable issues are welcome -- we 've spent a lot of time making sure the machine has very high compatibility and that process hasn't stopped.
There were actual examples posted earlier in this thread. Perhaps it'd be better to address them instead of talking about "uninformed comments", because such remarks come across as patronizing.

The other thing is saying that something "very accurate and it does a lot of new things to handle hardware and software compatibility with the original machines" does significantly differ from this:
"The ZX Spectrum Next Issue 2 is fully compatible with the original Spectrum 48, 128, +2, +3 and even some clones such as the Russian Pentagon, allowing it to run virtually every piece of software available. Its hardware is implemented in FPGA technology, with no emulation in sight."
Nevermind the HDMI issues which are also not mentioned anywhere there. So perhaps you should also understand why people might have questions.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Lethargeek »

Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:48 am The z80 was intended to be 100% binary compatible with the 8080 and as such is an 8080 emulator with extras.
NO, it WASN'T and ISN'T. Just the overflow flag alone breaks the backwards compatibility with documented ops, and it's obviously intentional.
Alcoholics Anonymous wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:48 am The NEC is reverse engineered and it's reverse engineered with errors. But it is a good clone.
As i said, it was a copy on the transistor level. The very errors are results of the traps put by the Z80 team.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:00 pm
There were actual examples posted earlier in this thread. Perhaps it'd be better to address them instead of talking about "uninformed comments", because such remarks come across as patronizing.
Agreed, I mentioned the same here:

viewtopic.php?p=59227#p59227
The ZX Spectrum Next Issue 2 is fully compatible with the original Spectrum 48, 128, +2, +3 and even some clones such as the Russian Pentagon, allowing it to run virtually every piece of software available. Its hardware is implemented in FPGA technology, with no emulation in sight."
Saying fully is always opening yourself up to someone finding a handful of pieces of software that won't work. Then to use the phrase 'virtually every piece of software' seems rather a contradiction. However over 99% of software runs just fine, which I am very happy with.

I'm very much positive about the Spectrum Next and think its a great project. I have the N-Go board, and backed the Spectrum Next (2nd batch). My only complaint about the whole project is the manual which I think is very poor (I have documented this previously). They started a spreadsheet for recording issues (of which there were many, but a revision or even addendum was never made available). To call it 'an incredible manual' is wrong in my eyes. I did have a very constructive conversation with Phoebus Dokos on Facebook and I feel he took my comments on board. I have also offered to be part of the team who proofread it. I don't under estimate the huge task in documenting something like this, I just feel that it was not checked to a high enough standard before publication. I have high hopes for the version which comes with the next batch of machines.

The Amiga style graphics or not for me, but I appreciate the appeal and what the project is trying to (and has succeeded in the most part) achieve.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by akeley »

PeterJ wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:23 pm I'm very much positive about the Spectrum Next and think its a great project.
So do I, and I have always supported it everywhere, even though it's a bit too pricey for me.

But that does not mean that there should be no criticism or talking about its flaws. And that stuff written on KS page is just not on. We all know that if it was in regard to any other commercial product it would be unacceptable. Yes, it is of course WIP and it's perfectly fine, but it should have been mentioned. Honesty is the best policy.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Pegaz »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:00 pmAny chance you could make a little pack with these demos and test programs and upload it somewhere? I'd like to try them on MiSTer later today, I have the games but not the other stuff.
Sure, here it is:
https://easyupload.io/05sut1

Files in the "ULA_tests" subfolder, for now only work with SpecEmu and Spin, as far as I know...
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:37 pm But that does not mean that there should be no criticism or talking about its flaws.
I agree completely with you, as long as it is done in a constructive manner these discussions should be useful. I also think it would be good for people to declare (as you have done) if they own one or not. Getting overly negative about something which you don't own seems a bit random to me, but each to their own.

Cheers.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by AndyC »

I think the problem is that, in some circles, emulation is seen as a negative connotation and FPGAs have been touted as somehow a perfect clone "because it's hardware!"

The reality is that neither of these is entirely true. There are emulators running on a generic PC OS that are capable of something very close to perfection and certainly closer than most people will ever care about. Likewise there are imperfections in FPGA cores (or issues integrating with modern standards like HDMI) that can mean they don't really meet the notion of 100% perfect either.

Neither is bad and just because you personally use one solution, it's not actually necessary to denigrate another. They're all great ways of letting us enjoy the good old days of Speccy computing without some of the hassles involved in getting actual 1980s equipment running. Isn't that a good thing overall?
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by akeley »

PeterJ wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:56 pm I also think it would be good for people to declare (as you have done) if they own one or not. Getting overly negative about something which you don't own seems a bit random to me, but each to their own.
I see your point, and it probably is sometimes uncalled for. But I also think facts should remain factual, regardless of the ownership status or being perceived as positive/negative. This is what we need to make informed buying decisions after all.

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] thanks, will give it a try later.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

AndyC wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:02 pm Neither is bad and just because you personally use one solution, it's not actually necessary to denigrate another. They're all great ways of letting us enjoy the good old days of Speccy computing without some of the hassles involved in getting actual 1980s equipment running. Isn't that a good thing overall?
Very well said [mention]AndyC[/mention]!
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Pegaz »

[mention]PeterJ[/mention]

Obviously we didn't understand each other, I responded to akeley's request, he allready has the games.
This is my folder with a lot of test programs/demos all in one place, It can be convenient for testing and I want to share them all.
The basic programs in that folder are examples for ULA four bright shades effects, I mentioned a couple of posts earlier.
I didn't have some of these test programs back then, because I found them recently in the zx-uno package, so whoever wants and has the time can try them all.
btw, maybe you're right, now that I don't have Next anymore, it's probably not appropriate for me to participate in topics like this...
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

Pegaz wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:37 pm @PeterJ
Obviously we didn't understand each other, I responded to akeley's request
Thanks [mention]Pegaz[/mention]. I have removed my original post as I now understand. Its my misunderstanding. Apologies.

I still think it would be useful to collate a complete list of (just like what has been so very well done with games that don't run on the 2A / +3) known games or demos (listed in ZXDB) which can be troublesome when not run on original hardware. Nobody seems to be able to provide a comprehensive list. These various tests are useful, but don't replicate real life for the majority of users. Just a simple Google sheet or similar with the games down the side, and the various FPGA devices along the top. Nice and easy. This would also be useful when new devices or emulators appear. I could also add the results to my emulator spreadsheet, so win - win !
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by Ast A. Moore »

Hmm. This argument reminds me of the issue I take with text-to-speech software. It’s gotten unbelievably good over the years (and I’ve been following it for more than two decades). Nevertheless, it always feels like if it’s not 100 percent accurate, it’s no good at all.

Emulation (hardware, software, or anything in between), too, seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place: developers can come up with a million arguments trying to defend their creations (and rightfully so), but it doesn’t matter to the end user. Either a product mimics (for the lack of a better word) the original to an acceptable level, or it doesn’t. What exactly an acceptable level is, will vary dramatically from one person to the next (to the NEXT?).

So, there’s a lesson in it for everyone: end users should understand the limitations of emulation/cloning/FPGAing, etc., and developers should be careful when making promises or claims like “fully compatible” or “100 percent accurate.”
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by 1024MAK »

Matt_B wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:31 am I'll just throw in the possibility that the universe itself is being emulated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
Not only that, everything that you as an individual human experience, be it vision, hearing, touch, smell, taste, pain etc, all the senses are processed by the brain. Everyone’s brain processes this information slightly differently. The brain then interprets this information and forms an internal mental construct of the world. Hence no human has ever seen the real world. We all are experiencing an emulation of how our brain thinks the universe works...

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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by 1024MAK »

AndyC wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:02 pm I think the problem is that, in some circles, emulation is seen as a negative connotation and FPGAs have been touted as somehow a perfect clone "because it's hardware!"

The reality is that neither of these is entirely true. There are emulators running on a generic PC OS that are capable of something very close to perfection and certainly closer than most people will ever care about. Likewise there are imperfections in FPGA cores (or issues integrating with modern standards like HDMI) that can mean they don't really meet the notion of 100% perfect either.

Neither is bad and just because you personally use one solution, it's not actually necessary to denigrate another. They're all great ways of letting us enjoy the good old days of Speccy computing without some of the hassles involved in getting actual 1980s equipment running. Isn't that a good thing overall?
Absolutely agree (but only 99.99% :mrgreen: :lol: )

Even real hardware using traditional chips (74xxx for example) can have problems, as internally the chips with the same basic type number are different internally between the different manufacturers of the 74xxx chips. Hence why there is a note In the service manual about this for the multiplexer chips used on the ZX Spectrum 16k/48k/+ boards...

FPGA configuration (or what some call programming) suffers from exactly the same problems that you get both with trying to recreate an item using traditional chips and where the exact circuitry is not known (or the understanding of it is incomplete) and assumptions that have to be made based on observations, experiments and tests of a actual real item of an original system. In this respect, it is similar to how software emulator writers work out how to try to emulate a system.

I never make negative comments (apart from constructive ones) about emulators or emulation. I think the people who have written working emulators are brilliant people. Although I prefer playing with real 8 bit, 16/32 bit hardware, I do use emulators.

Oh and absolutely nothing is, or will ever be perfect. Indeed a perfect item or a perfect world would be rather boring. Where would we get interesting surprises from. Like the understanding of the relatively recent discovery of the special Z80 reset?

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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

Pegaz wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:31 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oMyAYYFPCA
The author of this video actually made some very balanced comments at the end. I would agree with them all.

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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by akeley »

1024MAK wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:46 pm Oh and absolutely nothing is, or will ever be perfect.
The problem is that "perfection" is one of the main argument used to promote FPGAs. That's where the whole (rather tiresome and very often condescending) "it's NOT emulation!!!" angle stems from. When you take that away all's that left is 0-lag and "feel". These are good reasons, but they might or might not be important to people (again, like I said before, NEXT is a bit different because it actually uses FPGA to implement new features - but it still'd be nice to know about its limitations before buying in).

That's why it's important to talk about these things openly so people can decide if a given solution is for them or not. They are not cheap, and not everyone has the funds to go around and buy them on a whim. For example, I'd save myself some time and money if I knew that non-ZX cores on ZX Uno aren't exactly mature, as they were my main reason for buying it. But in the FPGA world it's very hard to find some concrete info, and anyway often you don't feel inclined to because everyone talks about "perfect" and "awesome", so you just assume it really is. So, as another example, if you assumed that about a486 and Apple 2 cores on MiSTer, and went and bought it on that strength, you could be in for a unpleasant surprise.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by 1024MAK »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:12 pm
1024MAK wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:46 pm Oh and absolutely nothing is, or will ever be perfect.
The problem is that "perfection" is one of the main argument used to promote...
absolutely anything. For some reason, people like to believe the err, marketing bumf, that makes them feel good when buying their latest acquisition. Hence despite us actually knowing that nothing is perfect, we still like to be told that what we are buying, is err, perfect...

So of course, when you are trying to get a Kickstarter or other crowd funded gadget or product funded, it’s far too easy to get overconfident and make silly claims...

And the same applies to FPGA projects. And lots of other stuff...

Reality check

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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

This is nothing new though. Sir Clive wanted us to believe the ZX80 was powerful enough to run a power station...

Image

After our experiences with the crowdfunding project we don't mention, I would of thought we would have learnt to take every Crowdfunding claim with a pinch of salt...
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by clebin »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:37 pmAnd that stuff written on KS page is just not on. We all know that if it was in regard to any other commercial product it would be unacceptable. Yes, it is of course WIP and it's perfectly fine, but it should have been mentioned. Honesty is the best policy.
This doesn't bother me as I feel it's the very nature of Kickstarter and is baked into the whole idea of risk & reward and helping people make things that otherwise couldn't exist. Every campaign I've backed has deviated from what was promised in one way or another, and every single one has missed its deadline. The problem is that the people running the project are usually attempting something much more ambitious than anything they've ever done before. It's almost never a lack of honesty, but inexperience, unforeseen problems and changes in circumstances (eg. a global pandemic), that mean things come out differently. A lot of problems can only be discovered by going through the whole development and production process, but you need the money to do that and with Kickstarter, all the money comes upfront.

I think it's important that everyone understands that completely before backing a Kickstarter. Recognise the risks, don't put in money you can't afford, be flexible and expect some things about the product to be different at the end. That's the reality when they say "Kickstarter is not a shop". But if there was no Kickstarter, projects like the Next wouldn't exist. And if every backer was determined to hold project teams to every single word of the campaign, who would want the stress of doing crowd-funding? If someone is going to get hung up on the delivery of a mouse-mat as Stretch Goal #7, they should just save themselves and everyone else the stress and avoid Kickstarter completely.

The long and short is, they delivered the product. Yes, it's got it's flaws - I don't like the joystick ports at the front, the SD card slot is fiddly, tape loading performance is not good (for me at least), and we're yet to see some of the stretch goals. But as I've said before.... it's beautiful, the keyboard is ace and it feels like a Spectrum. It's re-energised my love of the Speccy and I like it so much I've backed the 2nd one. I'm pleased I helped them a little bit to make it happen. That's just my experience.
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by 1024MAK »

I should also add, part of the problem here is that it’s relatively easy to download and try an emulator, for free. Despite a good emulator needing weeks/months/years of work to get it ‘right’.

Hardware including FPGA based boards costs money. And effort (due to limited availability) on the part of the buyer. A similar amount of time (weeks/months/years) will also have been needed by the developer(s) to to get it ‘right’.

In both cases, ‘right’ meaning that it’s better than 95 to 99% compared to what it’s replacing or trying to replicate.

And because a FPGA can be reconfigured via a download or update, there is an association with software (because it’s common now for software to be downloaded or updated).

Hence the simple, often asked question about FPGA based devices, “is it an emulator” or “is it emulation”.

As ‘emulation’ is normally referring to a software program running on a more powerful/faster computer where the program is allowing you to run software from an older/slower/less powerful computer, the simple answer to the question is ‘no’.

FPGA chips are used widely in industrial applications. The customer specifies their requirements. The engineers design and build the system. They test it. The customer confirms it meets the requirements. Everyone is happy. In most cases, the customer does not care which technology is being used.

Anyway, that’s all I have to say for now.

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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by akeley »

clebin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:22 pm This doesn't bother me as I feel it's the very nature of Kickstarter and is baked into the whole idea of risk & reward and helping people make things that otherwise couldn't exist. Every campaign I've backed has deviated from what was promised in one way or another, and singly every one has missed its deadline. The problem is that the people running the project are usually attempting something much more ambitious than anything they've ever done before. It's almost never a lack of honesty, but inexperience, unforeseen problems and changes in circumstances (eg. a global pandemic), that mean things come out differently. A lot of problems can only be discovered by going through the whole development and production process, but you need the money to do that and with Kickstarter, all the money comes upfront.
I know what you mean about KS projects in general, and in often it is indeed true, but in this case I disagree: we are talking about a second Kickstarter for this product. All these things were well known beforehand, we even had a nearly identical discussion about a year ago :)

For example, I've never had a problem with the keyboard quagmire: this is something unforseen which indeed just happens and kudos to the team for seeing it through. But the other claims were made only because saying that "it runs 99% of Spectrum software" doesn't sound as great as "is fully compatible with ZX Spectrum software". Ditto "HDMI issues will be sorted in further revision". Unfortunately avoiding these statements is also rather dishonest and could be construed as false advertising. I'm afraid I was always wary of the "KS is not a shop" angle because it absolves the makers of any responsibility, when in reality it actually very much is a sort of a shop and trade agreement.

Similarly, [mention]1024MAK[/mention] you have confused the unquantifable advertising "perfection" slogans with the actual claim here, because FPGA perfection is very quantifable: it's supposed to mean 100% compatibility, vs the allegedly flawed emulation ("no emulation in sight!"). Otherwise, why not just stick an RPi with Baremulator or some such in a nice case? (in a hypothetical scenario where Next has no extra features).

And the bottom line is, there is no need for all that. If they made these statements honest about how things are, I'm absolutely sure the KS would also be very succesful, and they'd save themselves some explaining to boot.

Anyway, it seems we are veering into the realm of emotional arguments of the "but it's awesome" variety, which remind me too much of the MiSter world...so I will bow out now. See you guys in a similar thread in a year or so ;)
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PeterJ
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by PeterJ »

akeley wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:02 pm See you guys in a similar thread in a year or so ;)
I will put a date in my diary [mention]akeley[/mention] and send you an invite. Maybe we can do it over Teams next time :-)

Hopefully, by the time this comes around next there will exist a list of titles which don't run as intended on the Next and other FPGA devices. Here's hoping!

Over and out from me too.
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1024MAK
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Re: Is the NEXT an emulator?

Post by 1024MAK »

[mention]akeley[/mention] - I’ve not read through the second Kickstarter web page(s) as I have a Next from the first Kickstarter. Hence I am not aware of what the project team have said for the second Kickstarter.

Kickstarter may look a bit like a shop, but it’s not. But that’s even more off topic...

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