Devfinitive Edition (Jullian Gollop): discussion

[PeteProdge]

Oops, a day late on this, but here we go, six days to discuss what should go in the shortlist of Julian Gollop's tangible ZX Spectrum games output.

And here is the list:

Chaos by Games Workshop

...there! I can't see any dispute about that. And by default, THAT is the winner. It is, after all, the greatest game ever made on any platform, of all time. Glad that's over and done with. 100% objective fact. Right, so next week we'll be looking at (No, no, do the rest - Ed).

Do we have to?

(Yes - Ed)

*sighs*

Battlecars by Games Workshop
Chaos by Games Workshop
Laser Squad by Target Games
Laser Squad - Remix by Blade Software
Lords Of Chaos by Blade Software
Nebula by Red Shift
Rebelstar by Firebird
Rebelstar 2 by Silverbird
Rebelstar Raiders by Red Shift

Yes, unbelievably, he did other games. And yeah, they're all pretty good really, but come on, it's Chaos in front, surely? Okay, I know some of you unbelievably rate some of the Rebelstar games as better. Now they are awesome games. And so is everything on this list. Not a stinker anywhere, even when he came up with one of them in almost BASIC coding. A genius designer and coder.

Let me know if I've missed anything, or if anything should be removed from the above list.

[Andre Leao]

Always Laser Squad, best game ever for the ZX

[worcestersource]

Think I’d have to go for Laser Squad since that offered more variety. However, my son and I play Chaos every now and then.

[Timmy]

Let me know if I've missed anything, or if anything should be removed from the above list.

You could start by removing Chaos from the list.

(I'll get my coat.)

But just in case, I do prefer his other games. I don't think Chaos is in my top 3, but that's for a future thread.

[blucey]

Rebelstar 2 is the best game on Speccy full stop.

[PeteProdge]

Rebelstar 2 is the best game on Speccy full stop.

I'm aware of the Spectrum Next and things like the Scorpion and the Timex TS2068, but whatever the hell this 'Speccy Full Stop' is, someone needs to make a modification or a patch or something to ensure Chaos is compatible with it. We can't have a situation where Rebelstar 2 is the best game on it (though it is pretty damned good), Speccy Full Stops deserve Chaos.

[Manu128k]

In my humble opinion, Chaos must be the #1 in the list of overrated and overestimated games for the Speccy, or maybe second place after Match Day.

It will probably win this poll but there are much better games that should be praised like the masterpiece Laser Squad and the Rebelstar Games too.

[MatGubbins]

A tough choice, as with the games by Denis Grachev/RetroSouls it's a difficult to pick a winner.

Rebelstar Firebird - The game that got me playing turn based games. The evenings after school with Dave and Graham huddled around the Spectrum playing against the computer or against each other were great. Only when the droid key was used against the raiders robots did the game become stale. Still a great game to play today against the computer.

Rebelstar 2 - sorry to say, but I just could not get into playing it. I tried so many times but with all the aliens, swamp rats and tenticled nasties all leaping onto the raiders I didn't enjoy it.

Laser Squad Target games - yes, I purchased it, played it and then the new tape recorder chewed it up and I didn't get to play it again until I found the Blade version in another shop. Bliss. Also had the Amiga version, played it too much.

Lords Of Chaos - I prefered the Amiga version as I found it easier to play just relaxing in the chair with mouse in hand. Trying to get the highest jewel/gold count and using the wizard to gain the points for the next level was a blast. I recall my months of long nights into the early mornings playing this game.

Rebelstar Raiders - I managed to find a boxed copy of this at a bootfair. After playing the updated Firebird version the original didn't grab me, but one day I will get it loaded again to find out what I missed. Great box artwork and I remember the 2 page advert for it in one of the mags.

It's going to be one of these... Rebelstar (Firebird), Lords of Chaos, Laser Sqaud.

[catmeows]

I prefer Chaos just because gameplay in hot seat mode is much more fluent than in Laser Squad or Lords of Chaos. Not like LS or LoC are bad games. But succesful raising of Golden Dragon from death and watching faces of my friends was so much fun.
Besides, I really love sound effects in Chaos. Chaos and Starquake are best sounding 48K games.

[SteveSmith]

Rebelstar 2 - sorry to say, but I just could not get into playing it. I tried so many times but with all the aliens, swamp rats and tenticled nasties all leaping onto the raiders I didn't enjoy it.

I couldn't agree more. All of Julian's other games are bona-fide classics and all could be in the top 10 best Speccy games ever, but I just don't get Rebelstar 2. There's so little time, it's basically "move right and shoot" all the way through and hope you make it in time. Very little chance of using any special tactics like flanking the enemy or misdirecting them.

[Matt_B]

Laser Squad Remix is just a hacked version of the game that has the expansion scenarios built in, but is otherwise the same. I don't think it needs to be in the poll.

Gollop's only contribution to Battlecars was the car designer, and not the game itself. Whether that's substantial enough for it to be in the poll is another question, of course.

Personal ranking:
Chaos
Laser Squad
Lords of Chaos
Rebelstar
Battlecars (if counted)
Rebelstar 2
Rebelstar Raiders
Nebula

This may change by the time of the poll, of course.

[RWAC]

Why all the hating on Rebelstar 2? That's his best game! I absolutely love it.
Chaos is good but not so good as a single player experience. Lords of Chaos is another fave of mine. Not quite as good as the Amiga version but still a fantastic game.
Laser Squad is not as good as the Rebelstar games imho. Not a fan of the hidden movement or the rotate and move controls.

[PeteProdge]

Why all the hating on Rebelstar 2? That's his best game! I absolutely love it.

Loads of Julian's games are fantastic and although I've really nailed my colours to the mast (did you know that I really like Chaos?), I'm full of admiration for Rebelstar 2. Out of his linear games, that's the best. And hence, I really do think it'll be my 2nd choice.

And that's the thing, you could shut your eyes, pick one of his games at random, and it'll be awesome. His worst game, whatever that is, is better than many coders' entire softographies.

[blucey]

Why all the hating on Rebelstar 2? That's his best game! I absolutely love it.

Exactly. This is heresy!

Rebelstar was GREAT, Chaos was GREAT but Rebelstar 2 is the game that I still go back to today.

I get that the turn limit does change things a bit but I like that. It's a game where you've got to advance (especially when the enemy reinforcements come) and so you've got to really use cover and just go for it. It's a bit like stepping out of one of those bullsh*t metal boats in 1945 and charging up a well-fortified beach. And I've never ever run out of time on the game. So I've never seen that as an issue anyway.

Rebelstar 2 is as close to an all-out action game as you can get with a turn-based strategy game.

[AndyC]

In my humble opinion, Chaos must be the #1 in the list of overrated and overestimated games for the Speccy, or maybe second place after Match Day.

If you've only ever played single player, or even just a couple of players, I can understand the sentiment. But Chaos really shines when you've got close to a full complement of wizards and none of the are computer controlled (and the same player controlling multiple doesn't really work either).

Honestly the only flaw in it is not providing a good way of changing turns without relying on trust to prevent someone snooping at your spells (or you just play it with everything in the open but that's less fun).

Rebelstar 2 is also fun, but it's a slower more cerebral game.

[blucey]

Chaos is unf*ckwittable greatness too and I never played it in multiplayer.

Nothing else really comes close to Chaos and the Rebelstars for being easy to get into but also deep enough to stay interesting for decades. I'm sure there are more complicated strategy games but I always stayed away from that section in Crash. Gollop always got the accessibility spot on back then.

The only game that got anywhere near his stuff was Samurai. It was a bit of a Tesco Value attempt but it was sort of fun.

[bluespikey]

Much as I love all things Gollop, I'm down as a Rebelstar 2 hater. I still find the map confusing and my demise normally comes from thinking an alien is to the right of me when its actually above. Paradise Valley in Laser Squad is a similar idea but much more fun, IMHO. Though I did once beat it 39-0 and got a victory message of 'Death to hackers!'.

I never realised @MatGubbins comment before that the Droid Key in Rebelstar could be used on Combat Droids too. That strategy requires balls of steel. And playing through the 2 player game, its like meeting old friends and new. Theres Ratface Flannagain and Leeder Krennon, but Spike Vomit?

Nebula is still a fun basic game with the emulator speed turned up.

So :

1 : Chaos
2. Laser Squad
3. Lords Of Chaos.