Devfinitive Edition (Matthew Smith): discussion

[toot_toot]

Manic Miner for me is the definitive game, while JSW was mind blowing at the time with its almost sandbox type of design, Manic Miner is just so tight and a great example of 80s home computer games where they took an arcade style formula (Donkey Kong) and used the extra memory and took away the “quarter cruncher” arcade design to make the game more enjoyable.

Although Manic Miner was inspired by Miner 2049er, it just feels so uniquely Speccy and is a good demonstration of the system to people who only know of US focused console retro gaming history.

[XTM]

Maybe some people won't like my opinion but I never rated Matthew Smith that highly as a programmer. Sure, he pulled off great and iconic games at a fairly young age, but both MM and JSW are somewhat sluggish affairs due to the way he (IIRC) rebuilds the whole screen using multiple back buffers, and let's not forget the bugs (even though they helped in elevating JSW to legendary status).
I know other people aren't too fussed about the games being a bit slow, but for me personally after many years of playing more fluid games, it has become a pet peeve with many Speccy games.

I don't want to downplay his importance and the impact he had as I loved both MM and JSW back in the day - but it's more for the game design and quirky rooms/names/sprites than the actual code. I just feel the superlatives that Matthew got showered with in the past, being called along the lines of best Speccy programmer ever by some, I think that was a bit over the top. There are a few coders like Joffa, Mike Lamb and others that I feel were simply better. Who knows what games Matthew would have pulled off if he hadn't gone AWOL after the success of JSW ... we'll never know.

[SteveSmith]

That's a fair point, but at the time of MMs release, 90% of games were flickery and jerky with undefined sprites. MM seemed silky smooth in comparison. That and in game music was far ahead of most other games (with exceptions obv).

[spider]

I know other people aren't too fussed about the games being a bit slow, but for me personally after many years of playing more fluid games, it has become a pet peeve with many Speccy games.

I do play them at a higher than normal speed. As you know a simple change of throwing out LDIR to be replaced with a bunch of LDI's (as per JSW2 and MJSW) does provide a reasonable increase alone. I suppose further gains could be made if needed by putting the 'game buffer' into uncontended memory and only using < 32768 for static stuff that is not needed in a time critical fashion (title screen graphics and such) but this is off topic a bit.

[XTM]

I do play them at a higher than normal speed. As you know a simple change of throwing out LDIR to be replaced with a bunch of LDI's (as per JSW2 and MJSW) does provide a reasonable increase alone. I suppose further gains could be made if needed by putting the 'game buffer' into uncontended memory and only using < 32768 for static stuff that is not needed in a time critical fashion (title screen graphics and such) but this is off topic a bit.

That is interesting, yet whenever I see YouTube videos of one of the numerous JSW clones (based on the first game, not the JSW 2 engine) which appeared in the last decade or two, they all are just the same slow and not optimized game (as described by you above), with that optional but nearly always same AY tune that repeats after 15 seconds or so ...

[bluespikey]

In 1983, MM did all sorts of things not seen before.

• In game tune
  Attract mode
  Animated loading screen
  The way the remaining lives danced on the screen, rather than just being a count
  Even the screechy intro tune was not just a simple beeper tune but something polyphonic

So yeah, for that brief time in 1983, MS was a godlike programmer. By JSW in 1984 it might not have been as remarkable, by both games still stand the test of time by the game design and not the programming.

[clebin]

Both games are top 10 for me, but I'll have to pick Jet Set Willy. Yeah, it's flawed and feels a bit unfinished in places, but nothing even came close to the excitement of exploring JSW as a kid. I remember so well trying to get to the top of East Wall, up the MegaTree or across the battlements, or just trying to reach a difficult item for the hell of it. It felt like such an adventure.

I've said it before, but one thing that really makes it unique in my mind, was the "darkness" in JSW, which might have come out of the situation it was made. You have the same quirky, surreal humour as Manic Miner also an underlying uneasiness and even downright scariness. I was actively terrified of going into an infinite death loop with the flashes and piercing noises. The West Bedroom felt empty and haunted. Entrance to Hades was like something out of a feverish nightmare.

I expect Manic Miner to win by comparing the "Manic MIner finishers thread" with the "Jet Set Willy finishers" thread I created. No-one wanted to take up the JSW challenge! But having actually completed it*, it gave me new appreciation of what a perfectly rounded game it is. It's very hard of course but not impossible* and since you have the freedom to complete the rooms in whatever order you want, it has immense replay value.

Recently, I've been trying to complete it without losing a life, but I can't get near a perfect run. I occasionally discover a quicker or less risky way to tackle a room, but I'm still finding myriad new ways to slip up. After more or less mastering Manic Miner until it becomes boring going round the same levels, Jet Set Willy just keeps on giving. Quite possibly my #1 of all time.

(*with the POKEs)

[AndyC]

Recently, I've been trying to complete it without losing a life, but I can't get near a perfect run. I occasionally discover a quicker or less risky way to tackle a room, but I'm still finding myriad new ways to slip up. After more or less mastering Manic Miner until it becomes boring going round the same levels, Jet Set Willy just keeps on giving. Quite possibly my #1 of all time.

Yeah, Manic Miner is probably the better game until you can beat it. Once you get the timing down it's like RoboCop and you can almost let muscle memory take over. JSW just had more options to play it differently or try and optimise your route etc.

I got very close to being able to do JSW2 (which I always preferred) on one life back in the day, but would inevitably make some little slip up here or there. There was also a lot of strategy in choosing which way to go and which objects weren't worth the risk (since you didn't need them all).