HiSoft C programmers?

[AndyC]

Modern C compilers will do a much better job of converting C code into Z80, not to mention providing a much nicer workflow than actually trying to code on a Spectrum. I don't think I'd spend much time using a period toolkit without a really good reason to do so.

[_dw]

I think it depends on the compiler.
ZX Basic --> Quick Basic --> Borland Pascal --> Borland C

When I learned to convert my program from pascal to C, because it was the "path to professionalism", I found out that the resulting code contains the name function.
Is bigger. Pascal was able to remove unused functions from the code.
I got the same / equivalent source code written with different syntax and worse executable.
I don't understand why the syntax should matter when both do the same thing and the only difference is made by the compiler.
It doesn't matter if the parameters are cleaned up inside the function or outside, because they are both parameters on the stack.
The fact that the division of two int numbers produces an int number is a small thing that we only have to watch during the conversion.



ZX - Can it be programmed directly on a real ZX?
PC - Can it be programmed comfortably from a PC?
read - Is the code readable?
auto - Can you make your code more readable and automatically remove comments or spaces with a script before use?
small - Is the code small?
fast - Is the code fast?
team - It is the work of a large team of people and used by a large number of people, so has anyone caught the bugs yet?
self - Can the compiler adjust when you come across something you need and it implicitly can't do it?
Atari - Can you compile your hw independent code with less effort on Atari as well?

Code: Select all

|                      |  ZX  |  PC | read | auto | small | fast | team | self | Atari |
+----------------------+------+-----+------+------+-------+------+------+------+-------+
|HiSoft                |  80  |   ? | 100  |      | ?     | ?    | yes  | no   | yes?  |
|Z88dk.zcc             |   0  | 100 | 100  |      | 20    | 40   | yes  | no   | yes   |
|ZX Basic              | 100  | 100 |  80  |  yes | 90-110| 10   | yes  | no?  | yes?  |
|compiled Boriel Basic | 100? | 100 | 100  |      | 30    | 50   | yes? | no   | yes?  |
|Forth                 |  90  |   ? |  50  |      | 100   | 20   | no   | yes  | yes   |
|compiled M4 Forth     |   0  | 100 |  40  |      | 40    | 70   | no!  | yes? | no    |
|Assembler             |  90  | 100 |  20  |      | 80    | 100  | yes  | yes  | no    |

Why not support C means damning all programs written in it?

I'm just saying that C is at a disadvantage, because the only advantage it has is that it is spread across platforms. But Basic and Forth have that too.

Selling variables via the stack even if recursion is not used is simply expensive, so then I try to make various exceptions to selling via registers, but this can only work if the function no longer calls another non-recursive function.
Then the variable must be cleaned up on the stack or in memory. On the Z80, C already has a design flaw.

Boriel Basic does not have to solve this, it is better than the C compiler.
The programmer has already chosen a solution in Basic that avoids recursion.

Forth is even better than Basic. The programmer chooses the algorithm by giving it parameters in TOS and NOS.
Forth already has the path swept, it does not have to find out what should be in the registers like C.
The pain of Forth will be that it needs 2 trays, so the emulated one will be slow.
The pain for the Forth compiler will be that due to the way Forth works as an interpreter, effective code for the interpreter will require a different approach/algorithm than the code I want to compile.

For me, the Z88dk simply has this disadvantage, thanks to its versatility, if you try to use it, you won't even be able to compile hello word.
You will google what parameter to write when compiling "+zx"! How to solve the fact that it changes my fonts to 4*8 when I don't want them.
How to compile a 16-bit float, because the instruction you found on the net no longer works.
If you don't speak English and you probably can't find the right forum, then end it yourself.
It's easier to write it in assembly than in C...
Documentation and some sort of training site will be more important than a compiler they can't use.
Otherwise, the fact that it was written by someone smarter than me becomes a disadvantage.

[PeterJ]

@_dw,

Many of your z88dk observations are answered in Derek's comprehensive guide. Z88dk was a mystery until I worked through it. The website documentation isn't great

https://github.com/z88dk/z88dk/blob/mas ... Started.md

[C.Born]

Seem there are +3 and disciple/+D disk versions of Hisoft C (and Hisoft Pascal).

yes,
i tried Hisoft C on mgt but i still had to learn C.
i did some type-in from the booklet and i cant stand that GUI
smaller character would be nice and edit as a normal txt file would be nice.
other compilers on speccy, like the modula2, are a bit easier in using it.
but if you can make a nice and strict STRUCT on hisoft?
i did not try
yet
C is from the beginning when 32k to 64k was normal, cp/m works from disk counting as extra memory.
i think C and Z80 fit wel together if you exploit it better, z88 proves such possibilities
it will need a multple interrupt manager, which is possible as proven by Toni Baker in the earlier ZX years

[_dw]

@_dw,

Many of your z88dk observations are answered in Derek's comprehensive guide. Z88dk was a mystery until I worked through it. The website documentation isn't great

https://github.com/z88dk/z88dk/blob/mas ... Started.md

I think I searched those pages, but they don't help me for what I needed.
I think I expected printf("%i",i); will print a number, the command is ignored instead. I accidentally found that it should be printf("%d",i);
It doesn't help with 16-bit float either, I would have to find someone who has contact with the authors.

Here is the dump for z88dk.zcc without the parameter. I would expect to find "+zx" there. But it's not there... How do you want to start? You will find many libraries for assembler and prove to understand and modify them. This is where the complexity can kill you. It happened to me. I'm not good enough for C.

Spoiler

Code: Select all

dworkin@dw-A15:~/Programovani/ZX/Forth$ z88dk.zcc 
zcc - Frontend for the z88dk Cross-C Compiler - v19766-9ffe2042c-20220722

Usage: /snap/z88dk/4598/bin/zcc +[target] {options} {files}

Options:

   -v -verbose                  Output all commands that are run (-vn suppresses)
   -h -help                     Display this text
      -o                        Set the basename for linker output files
      -specs                    Print out compiler specs

CPU Targetting:
      -m8080                    Generate output for the i8080
      -m8085                    Generate output for the i8085
      -mz80                     Generate output for the z80
      -mz80n                    Generate output for the z80n
      -mz180                    Generate output for the z180
      -mr2ka                    Generate output for the Rabbit 2000
      -mr3k                     Generate output for the Rabbit 3000
      -mgbz80                   Generate output for the Gameboy Z80

Target options:
      -subtype                  Set the target subtype
      -clib                     Set the target clib type
      -crt0                     Override the crt0 assembler file to use
      -startuplib               Override STARTUPLIB - compiler base support routines
      --no-crt                  Link without crt0 file
      -startup                  Set the startup type
      -zorg                     Set the origin (only certain targets)
      -nostdlib                 If set ignore INCPATH, STARTUPLIB
      -pragma-redirect          Redirect a function
      -pragma-define            Define the option in zcc_opt.def
      -pragma-output            Define the option in zcc_opt.def (same as above)
      -pragma-export            Define the option in zcc_opt.def and export as public
      -pragma-need              NEED the option in zcc_opt.def
      -pragma-bytes             Dump a string of bytes zcc_opt.def
      -pragma-include           Process include file containing pragmas

Lifecycle options:
      -m4                       Stop after processing m4 files
   -E --preprocess-only         Stop after preprocessing files
   -c --compile-only            Stop after compiling .c .s .asm files to .o files
   -a --assemble-only           Stop after compiling .c .s files to .asm files
   -S --assemble-only           Stop after compiling .c .s files to .asm files
   -x                           Make a library out of source files
      -create-app               Run appmake on the resulting binary to create emulator usable file

M4 options:
      -Cm                       Add an option to m4
      -copy-back-after-m4       Copy files back after processing with m4

Preprocessor options:
      -Cp                       Add an option to the preprocessor
      -D                        Define a preprocessor option
      -U                        Undefine a preprocessor option
      -I                        Add an include directory for the preprocessor
      -iquote                   Add a quoted include path for the preprocessor
      -isystem                  Add a system include path for the preprocessor

Compiler (all) options:
      -compiler                 Set the compiler type from the command line (sccz80,sdcc)
      --c-code-in-asm           Add C code to .asm files
      --opt-code-speed          Optimize for code speed
      -debug                    Enable debugging support

Compiler (sccz80) options:
      -Cc                       Add an option to sccz80
      -set-r2l-by-default       (sccz80) Use r2l calling convention by default
      -O                        Set the peephole optimiser setting for copt

Compiler (sdcc) options:
      -Cs                       Add an option to sdcc
      --opt-code-size           Optimize for code size (sdcc only)
      -SO                       Set the peephole optimiser setting for sdcc-peephole
      --fsigned-char            Use signed chars by default

Compiler (clang/llvm) options:
      -Cg                       Add an option to clang
      -clang                    Stop after translating .c files to llvm ir
      -llvm                     Stop after llvm-cbe generates new .cbe.c files
      -Co                       Add an option to llvm-opt
      -Cv                       Add an option to llvm-cbe
      -zopt                     Enable llvm-optimizer (clang only)

Assembler options:
      -Ca                       Add an option to the assembler
      -z80-verb                 Make the assembler more verbose

Linker options:
      -Cl                       Add an option to the linker
      -L                        Add a library search path
      -l                        Add a library
      -bn                       Set the output file for the linker stage
      -reloc-info               Generate binary file relocation information
   -m -gen-map-file             Generate an output map of the final executable
   -s -gen-symbol-file          Generate a symbol map of the final executable
      --list                    Generate list files

Appmake options:
      -Cz                       Add an option to appmake

Misc options:
      -g                        Generate a global defc file of the final executable (-g -gp -gpf:filename)
      -alias                    Define a command line alias
      --lstcwd                  Paths in .lst files are relative to the current working dir
      -custom-copt-rules        Custom user copt rules
      -no-cleanup               Don't cleanup temporary files

Argument Aliases:

PS: And I forgot to mention how many times my attempt to compile z88dk from source failed. Some problem with the download. I ended up with a thousand tiny files on my disk. Megabytes of data. Without success. Thank goodness for the snap! Someone did this job for me.

[PeterJ]

@_dw,

I think you have decided C isn't for you. It's great there are so many languages to keep everyone happy.

[dfzx]

Selling variables via the stack even if recursion is not used is simply expensive, so then I try to make various exceptions to selling via registers, but this can only work if the function no longer calls another non-recursive function.
Then the variable must be cleaned up on the stack or in memory. On the Z80, C already has a design flaw.

I don't know when you last looked at Z80 C's calling conventions, but passing by register instead of the stack (known as fastcall) has been supported by various compilers for many years. z88dk had this in 2010. The issue on the Z80 is that there aren't many registers, and passing a single 32 bit value via registers uses 4 of them. But that's the same with any language.

For non-fastcall, having the called function clear up the stack before returning (known as callee convention) vastly reduces the amount of code and time needed to handle function returns. That's also been supported by z88dk for more than a decade.

Z80 C might have had a design flaw in 1984, but a lot's happened in 40 years.

For me, the Z88dk simply has this disadvantage, thanks to its versatility, if you try to use it, you won't even be able to compile hello word.
You will google what parameter to write when compiling "+zx"! How to solve the fact that it changes my fonts to 4*8 when I don't want them.
How to compile a 16-bit float, because the instruction you found on the net no longer works.
If you don't speak English and you probably can't find the right forum, then end it yourself.
It's easier to write it in assembly than in C...
Documentation and some sort of training site will be more important than a compiler they can't use.
Otherwise, the fact that it was written by someone smarter than me becomes a disadvantage.

I originally wrote the z88dk getting started guide in 2017. If you have read it, and it doesn't address your questions, by all means let me know. I maintain that documentation and want it to answer people's questions. Ask on the z88dk forum, where it's a bit more on topic than here.

[dfzx]

I'm not good enough for C.

Well that's fair enough. But then it's not really fair that you criticise the language when you readily admit that the language isn't the actual problem. Unjustified and inaccurate criticism just puts potential users off.

[_dw]

I don't know when you last looked at Z80 C's calling conventions, but passing by register instead of the stack (known as fastcall) has been supported by various compilers for many years. z88dk had this in 2010. The issue on the Z80 is that there aren't many registers, and passing a single 32 bit value via registers uses 4 of them. But that's the same with any language.

fastcall is an attempt to solve the problem with slow random access to unsorted data on the storage, but it must logically fail and it is not as savior as it sounds. You only keep data effectively in registers when you process them and you have to have some priorities, which is more important. Straightener for a bender.

Basic does not have this when it has global data. Fastcall is the default.

Forth doesn't have this either because it DOES NOT mix data and return values in one stack, and the design of an effective algorithm is a matter for the programmer, so the compiler doesn't decide how it should go in the data register.

The assembler is the best part, the programmer will figure it all out himself and the compiler will take care of the correct addresses.

For non-fastcall, having the called function clear up the stack before returning (known as callee convention) vastly reduces the amount of code and time needed to handle function returns. That's also been supported by z88dk for more than a decade.

Z80 C might have had a design flaw in 1984, but a lot's happened in 40 years.

I originally wrote the z88dk getting started guide in 2017. If you have read it, and it doesn't address your questions, by all means let me know. I maintain that documentation and want it to answer people's questions. Ask on the z88dk forum, where it's a bit more on topic than here.

Thank you for your work!
As I said, the basic switch +zx should already be listed in the help list. There, one will wonder first when it doesn't have a "man".
I would like to know how to compile the "original C" benchmark "n-body" for 16 bit floats, for comparison.

https://github.com/z88dk/z88dk/wiki/Benchmarks#n-body

[Timmy]

z88dk is just a compiler; it does not teach the language.

It's almost like me blaming all those japanese games for not teaching me Japanese. Or text adventures in English.

Well, the text adventure actually helped, but I needed a dictionary and it still didn't helped with idioms and grammar.

Z88dk is very secretive in explaining. And they change stuff still very often; on the other hand, you could say it's still alive and kicking.

One day when I have more time I might start writing a new tutorial too. But I've also already wrote one on the previous spectrum site. I don't really like writing tutorials because English isn't my first language, and I tend to write very, very slowly, and my health is just not as good as before.

I also wrote a step by step post to build z88dk in the z88dk forums, but it's intended just for myself for reading it back later.

One of the reason I'm not writing big documents right now is that they are still planning for a new big version for the last 8 months. Perhaps they will never finish that new major version. I am not holding my breath.

Anyway, if you have any problems with z88dk, ask them in the z88dk forums. It's easier to collect them there, but if you have specific questions then I won't mind answering it on this forum too. But preferably not in a thread about HiSoft C.

[PeterJ]

@Timmy,

Derek's C guide is very good. I'm not sure we need another one. I've read some of your previous guides though, they are great!

[_dw]

Ok, if someone thinks that what I wrote is rude, I apologize.

Please don't let it ruin the Christmas atmosphere. Nothing I said was intended to offend anyone.

[Timmy]

@Timmy,

Derek's C guide is very good. I'm not sure we need another one. I've read some of your previous guides though, they are great!

I agree.

But both Derek and I know that z88dk had a direction change recently about its libraries. It's affecting z88dk quite a bit, and we've also found some new optimisation techniques.

I might also want to write more about building for other platforms as well, like the MSX and the Game Boy.

Preferably I don't want to write myself, of course. And a lot of this is already on the forums, but it's not easily accessible, apparently.

[C.Born]

about the DiscIple version: (is not +D, but maybe ??)

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/page.ph ... 58&page=13

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/page.ph ... 58&page=14

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/page.ph ... 58&page=15