How big should new Speccy games be? 48k? Bigger? Release 2 versions?

[Lee Bee]

Honestly, guys, I truly appreciate all these views. All very diverse and excellent points. No one is "wrong". It's a complicated issue. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I'm not here with an agenda. Now that I'm getting involved with Spectrum game publishing, I just want to know how the community feels. What people want.

It's occurred to me that there is actually a very confusing, complex landscape when you get into Speccy publishing, with many factors to consider. 48k or 128k machine? Compatible with both? Release two versions? Are you primarily developing for emulators or real hardware? Which models do you want to be compatible with? Plus all the intricacies and implications of each option (loading time, music output). The worst thing is that these issues might not even occur to you when you set out making your game.

My "engine" idea is designed to try and help bring everyone's feelings together into some kind of common framework that could work well most of the time, presenting future developers with only three simple choices:

1. Make a big game that won't run on 48k machines
2. Make a small game that takes no advantage of 128k machines
3. Use the "standard engine" for a game that runs on all machines and still takes advantage of 128k machines

But I love and welcome all criticism of my idea. Criticism is what makes the difference between an average product and a good one.

[Timmy]

What I do think, is that if I ever need music into a game, then it won't ever be 80k of music.

Imagine people are playing a 15 minute tape to be able to listen to 3 minutes of looped music tracks. It just doesn't seem to be worth it.

For me, a suitable size for total music and sound effects in an 128k game would be like around 6K (including the player/tracker).

Am I correct, what do you think is a suitable size of music in Ks?

[1024MAK]

Yeah but, no, but...

Are we speaking about "straight" AY sound chip data, music notation, samples or what?

6K bytes of AY sound chip music data <> as data for samples.

Then there is the mass storage system being used. Real tape LOADing on a real ZX Spectrum is rather slower than being LOADed from floppy disk/hard drive/CF card/SD card or when using an emulator.

Mark

[1024MAK]

Oh, and I feel that the small minority with an "80K" RAM upgrade are being left out

Technically it is also possible to have a 32K Speccy (16K rubber key with 16K of expansion RAM). I don't know if anyone ever made expansion packs or fitted suitable DRAM chips internally for this though.

Mark

[AndyC]

 Picture ( picture number , x coordinate , y coordinate , optional code for what to do if machine is 48k)

Leaving aside the notion of whether arbitrarily limiting the banked memory to pictures/music, that's a very modern way of trying to define an API. You'd really need to spec it out in native Z80 to get a feel for whether it would be usable. And factor in what the arrangements in terms of what central RAM has to be sacrificed to support this? How is picture X found? Can images be compressed? etc.

[Lee Bee]

Can images be compressed? etc.

It's all just a rough suggestion, nothing concrete, but I'd say compressed images is a must.

For me, a suitable size for total music and sound effects in an 128k game would be like around 6K (including the player/tracker).

You raise a very important and relevant point about music loading time! I believe 10k takes 1 minute to load, which can provide a few minutes' music, so I think for most games, a few dozen k of music can be justified, depending on the game.

As much as I'd love to have a full 80k for music, it would add 10 minutes to loading time, which makes it seem like an "emulator only" deal. But then again, this is how the 128k was designed to work, isn't it?

[AndyC]

As much as I'd love to have a full 80k for music, it would add 10 minutes to loading time, which makes it seem like an "emulator only" deal. But then again, this is how the 128k was designed to work, isn't it?

Not really, it isn't like the extra memory would only be used for music. Most 48/128 games used the vast majority of the RAM to preload and cache all the multiload data (which might be levels, sprites, code, music whatever) - the theory being that 10 minutes of extra loading would be worth it if you didn't have to stop mid-game and load more (and worse reload everything if you died on level 2 etc)

And the +3 can load 80K of data in next to no time, of course. Although "multiloads" from +3 disk are also a lot less painful, so you can go a lot further in many regards.

[equinox]

Year 2024 A.D. The 'spectrum community' still hates 128K

and don't get us started on any computer made later than 1987!

[equinox]

I'm merely proposing a standard go-to model that would work well for most developers and tick a lot of boxes for most of this community. A community who—generally speaking—likes having limited RAM for coding and sprites, and appreciate compatibility with 48k machines, but who also wouldn't mind the flexibility to have more AY music for 128k machines.

Yeah, could work, in some scenarios. But another point I suppose is that we're talking about such tiny platforms (128 kilobytes! that's like a tenth of an obsolete floppy disk!) that the cost of supporting your "standard platform", rather than tailoring every byte for the specific game being made, may be significant.

(AndyC kinda made this point above. But as you can see, I've been catching up on the thread and replying as I go. Oops. Inefficient.)

[equinox]

What I do think, is that if I ever need music into a game, then it won't ever be 80k of music.
Imagine people are playing a 15 minute tape to be able to listen to 3 minutes of looped music tracks. It just doesn't seem to be worth it.

That's when you go full Automata, and just start recording your voice (or Jon Pertwee's) on the tape after the data. Try that on a floppy!!

[J. Pirés]

I voted for option 1.

Personally, I am indifferent whether it's developed for 48k or 128k.
Even games for Pentagon 2048 with TS and GS support are welcome if the case arises.
I was a user of the 48K, to which I have a special affection, but if I hadn't upgraded to the 128K +2A model in my case, and later to the +3, I wouldn't have been able to endure so long with my speccy.

Having better sound and being able to load complete games in a single go greatly enhances the experience.
I think that as long as interesting games are made for the speccy, what does it matter which model it is for?

Nowadays, we have many options to make games work on different machines.

[Timmy]

Yeah but, no, but...

Are we speaking about "straight" AY sound chip data, music notation, samples or what?

6K bytes of AY sound chip music data <> as data for samples.

As a coder I never understand why those AY musicians need more than 6K for just one simple AY tune.

For example The Legend of Zelda (as a NES game) had all its tunes and sound effects and player in 1 bank of 16K. But somehow we need more than 6K for just one song?

(Obviously I'm just jesting, but this is also a response of people wondering why the "code" should be large, while music can be of unlimited sizes...)

[equinox]

As a coder I never understand why those AY musicians need more than 6K for just one simple AY tune.
For example The Legend of Zelda (as a NES game) had all its tunes and sound effects and player in 1 bank of 16K. But somehow we need more than 6K for just one song?
(Obviously I'm just jesting, but this is also a response of people wondering why the "code" should be large, while music can be of unlimited sizes...)

I suppose (and you probably know) that it's because modern AY stuff would be done in a tracker, which will produce a separate song file "output" for each track, without the possibility to share instruments, envelopes, etc. between them.

The expense is probably worth it, if the alternative is coding the whole thing from the ground up like poor Tim Follin (who, judging by interviews, seems to have hated the whole experience). But I admit it's less cool.

[Lee Bee]

As a coder I never understand why those AY musicians need more than 6K for just one simple AY tune.

For example The Legend of Zelda (as a NES game) had all its tunes and sound effects and player in 1 bank of 16K. But somehow we need more than 6K for just one song?

I'd agree that most Speccy tunes shouldn't need to be much more than 6k—however, it depends on the song! Some songs don't need to be very big; some do.

I can agree that 16k is a comfortable amount of space for a simple Speccy soundtrack with a handful of tunes. Actually, I've just completed a soundtrack for a game called Sheepish (released soon) comprising 8 tunes which total around 14k. They are as follows:

• Title screen 2.3k
• Intro 1.3k
• In-game 5.2k
• Boss 1.9k
• Game complete 1.6k
• + 3 other tunes under 1k each

The in-game tune is pushing your 6k limit, but it's a complex piece of pop rock music with a lot going on (the developer wanted a rendition of Duran Duran's Hungry Like The Wolf and that is what I delivered ).

I suppose (and you probably know) that it's because modern AY stuff would be done in a tracker, which will produce a separate song file "output" for each track, without the possibility to share instruments, envelopes, etc. between them.

Actually, I'd say that compression is better these days, and I think you'll find that my upcoming Sheepish soundtrack sounds far more technically complex than Zelda, despite being smaller in size! "Modern" tracker music seems to compress quite well. Trackers such as Arkos allows multiple songs to share instruments. On the other hand, I'm surprised Zelda takes up a whole 16k given how technically crude it is. It would seem like compression was poor or non-existent on such games.

[equinox]

Actually, I've just completed a soundtrack ...
... and I think you'll find that my upcoming Sheepish soundtrack sounds far more technically complex than Zelda, despite being smaller in size!

Yes I've heard your work before and it is good.
Can also confirm that you seem to imagine there is a Hawkingian black hole ready to suck up your music, and have no real idea of storage or storage access, except "I added up some random numbers of notes, knew nothing about playback routines or the ULA getting up my nose, and I'm going to fix all of this by making a page on itch.io with a picture of a monkey."
Still. I can't do sh*t on a piano keyboard so boo-hoo. I just wish I could swap 10% of my programming with 10% of your creativity.

[firelord]

I might have an answer the following days (or weeks or months ). I'm creating an entry for the CGC using DAAD and I want to add as much text possible to the 48k version...
I'm curious : will I reach DAAD entries limit first or the 48k memory limit...

[Lee Bee]

Thanks, @equinox.

[Lee Bee]

Quick AGD Question:

A friend of mine is working on a game that's under 48k in total, but he's saying AGDx mini can only generate games that run on 128k machines! Surely this can't be right? Anyone know a solution?