A can of worms with multiple genres

[marenja]

There are several topics about games that belong to several genres. I have found a question and 2 discussions in this forum.

More than 1 category viewtopic.php?t=8337

Game Genres viewtopic.php?t=665

The "Maze" genre (discussion of general genres at the topic end) viewtopic.php?t=804&start=25

Were there any reclassifying or any practical results of discussions?

I had looked through all this subforum and found no other topics related to games genres classification. Looks like there was no interest to this during last 5 years. Probably some topics are hidden (i see 173 topics today)?

[firelord]

I think at some point I suggested to use a tag system to make easier to find similar games that interest us.

[marenja]

But well, was new classification done ?
I can find no information about this. Only some lists in discussion of maze games.

Links to some important posts

The current problem is that categories describe not gaming mechanics, but the plot.

Spoiler

That same Vehicle combat can mean space simulator like Elite (ships are battling), Battle City clone (arcade game with tanks on field), racing game like Chase HQ, strategy game like Nether Earth (still vehicles combat!) and so on. So, sticking to this logic is not intuitive for the end-user.
I suggest the steps:
1. We should agree upon the software categories tree. As a base we can use some more or less recognized genres. For example, instead of Strategy: Tactical Combat, we should use something like Turn-based strategy, which describes the game for end-user in a best way.
2. As soon as the main categories tree is ready, we can split the task between different people (I'm sure that I'm not only one willing to do a part of categorization). We need some simple private tool for this task maybe - I can think something out.

Please see my logic above: sticking not to game plot or setting, but game mechanics.

The problem is that the problem will get worse and worse with time. The sooner we make the main changes - the better. I understand that if we won't find enough volunteers (including myself) for recategorizing, then it could not really happen, but there are numerous other ways to resolve this problem.

OK, go ahead! I agree it's worth it trying.

ZXDB is flexible enough that it can support a second classification system, without sacrificing anything. Moreover, this new classification system could support assigning more than one genre to a certain game if needed. Users will basically get one more way to search for games, so it's a good thing.

Do you have an initial proposal for the new categories tree, that we can discuss here?

Anyway I have been reviewing information from several threads (including this one) to improve game classification, and I'm now convinced we need a better category system.

Spoiler

I suggest we establish a new, more flexible classification where a game can be assigned to multiple categories. Elite could be classified as both space sim and commerce, probably also strategy and management. Educational games could be classified as quiz or puzzle, not just educational. Likewise it would allow classifying certain games as platform and maze at the same time, for instance.

I was previously worried about the tens of thousands games we would need to reclassify. But I realize now that I could automatically convert classifications to the new system, before we start modifying them. Moreover I would also keep the original WoS classification for historical reasons, and also because anyone that prefers the old system would still have it too. This way we have nothing to lose!

If everyone agrees, the first step is choosing the new categories. OK?

This task will require the following steps:

Spoiler

1.) We use this forum to discuss and decide the new classification system. Although we can always refine the classification later, ideally we should try to make the best decisions possible in advance, because every change would require reclassifying lots of games all over again.

2.) Create the new classification system in ZXDB as "groups". They work like "tags", thus allowing to classify each game in several groups at once.

3.) Automatically convert from the original "game genres" into this new "classification groups" system.

4.) Identify individual titles that must be re-classified and update this information accordingly.

I can handle steps 2 and 3, they would only take a few minutes. But first we need to handle step 1. I will start a new thread about it later so everybody can provide feedback!

[Einar Saukas]

We are still at step 1:

1.) We use this forum to discuss and decide the new classification system. Although we can always refine the classification later, ideally we should try to make the best decisions possible in advance, because every change would require reclassifying lots of games all over again.

So far, many people agreed a better classification system would be nice. However nobody took over the task of proposing a new classification and leading a discussion about these details in this forum...

In the meantime, we now have a new tag for "Multi-Genre" games, which is the best alternative to avoid reclassifying everything:

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/list?group_id=1073

[Timmy]

I have absolutely no problem on reclassifications as long as the person who asked for it do 101% of the work.

(That does not imply it can be passed to the database. It would still need to be checked by everyone else first.)

And to be honest, I don't see much worms here, so I'd rather leave it as it is.

[Einar Saukas]

Look, I know it seems trivial to simply allow each game be classified in multiple genres. I think it's worth it to explain why it's not, the consequences of this change, and the reason this kind of change would need to be planned and rediscussed in this forum first...

Current classification system has evolved over decades of experience at Martijn's WoS, and we made even more improvements at ZXDB. Right now there's practically no ambiguity: you simply choose the genre that best represents the game and that's it. In the few cases of a game where each stage plays differently, you still assign the genre that best represents it overall and mark it as "Multi-Genre". It's not a perfect solution but it works fairly well.

However if we allow multiple classification genres for genres, it will create new problems that we will need to solve first:


1) Redundancy/ambiguity

We currently have a genre called ARCADE GAME: ADVENTURE. However, if a certain game can be marked as both ARCADE GAME and ADVENTURE GAME, then we cannot have ARCADE GAME: ADVENTURE anymore. Otherwise similar games will be classified differently, sometimes as ARCADE GAME: ADVENTURE, and sometimes as ARCADE GAME + ADVENTURE GAME. If so, this new classification would make it harder to find similar games, not easier.

The same logic applies to other cases, for instance we currently have GAME: SIMULATION, GAME: FLIGHT SIMULATOR, GAME: TACTICAL COMBAT, GAME: VEHICLE COMBAT, etc. It may be better to break them into separate genres for SIMULATION, FLIGHT, COMBAT, VEHICLE. etc. This way we could have combinations like FLIGHT+SIMULATION, FLIGHT+COMBAT, VEHICLE+RACE, VEHICLE+COMBAT, etc. Perhaps a game like Elite would be classified as FLIGHT+COMBAT+STRATEGY+MANAGEMENT?

Anyway this new classification should be planned such that, it should always be clear what's the correct set of genres to classify each game. If it's hard to figure out how to classify each game in the new system, it will be impractical to use.


2) Orthogonality

Lots of ADVENTURE GAME: GRAPHIC and ARCADE GAME: ADVENTURE games (like Pyjamarama) have sideways view and you can climb on stuff, so it would make sense to classify them as ARCADE GAME: PLATFORM too.

Most games (including ADVENTURE GAME: GRAPHIC, ARCADE GAME: PLATFORM, ARCADE GAME: PINBALL, ARCADE GAME: SHOOT-EM-UP, ARCADE GAME: VEHICLE COMBAT, etc) involve action too, so they would be also classified as ARCADE GAME: ACTION.

If each game can have a single genre, it will be classified in a more specific category so that's not a problem. But if we change it so we have to mark all genres that match each game, certain genres will contain almost every game in the archive. This will make these genres completely useless.

We would need to choose orthogonal genres. We cannot have a genre that's (almost) a subset of another. i.e if most games in this genre would be in another genre too.


These are not easy problems to solve. It would require someone to work on a proposal, discuss it here in the forum to get everyone's feedback, afterwards reclassify lots of games to validate it in practice and make any necessary adjustments. Unfortunately that's a lot of work. Is it worth it? I don't know...

[marenja]

We are still at step 1:

So far, many people agreed a better classification system would be nice. However nobody took over the task of proposing a new classification and leading a discussion about these details in this forum...

I remember there were some people ready to participate. 5 years ago.

So i am curious to know if there are any motivated to participate now.
And to be honest if there were any motivated 5 years ago too, because there were no discussions of new genres.