The Perils of Willy

People are still making stuff for the Sinclair related machines. Tell us about new games and other software that runs on the Spectrum, ZX80/ZX81, Pentagon and Next.
highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

https://ancillarycopyright.eu/news/2019 ... gh-culture\

To be clear, I personally would actively encourage people to review games, do 'let's play' videos, talk and discuss. The only thing I would discourage is the persistent publication of games in their entirety with little or no discretion - particularly when they use rollback to do it.
Last edited by highrise on Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PaulJ
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by PaulJ »

I'm a little late to the 'party', but have to say I agree fully with highrise and Alessandro.

I spend a lot of time 'giving' to the community and none of my work is monetised (apart from a tiny fraction via Patreon which is voluntary - unlike adverts on youtube).
My games that are sold, all funds go back to the company to do more good work.
My YouTube channel is not monetised.
My magazines are free to download.

I want people to enjoy the content, to explore the games, to get a feeling of pride when they reach the next stage or screen. I want people to review my content, tell others about it, get others playing and involved. Showing a full walk-through, in my humble opinion, spoils things, especially if it's with 24 hours. I have no problems with walk-throughs if it forms part of a review, with the author putting in some effort themselves, and giving something back, or allowing some time between release, giving people a chance to make their own way through the game.

I have used RZX files when the game I am reviewing for the show is too difficult. This is done after many attempts myself, and only for the purpose of the review (along with comments and opinions), to show more of the game (not it's entirety) to get others interested.

By the way.. Titanic.. the ship sinks and he dies at the end... see.. no effort at all and I've just ruined the experience :-)
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

Nice to hear from you Paul, and good to see another author expressing the same views. From the outset I've always been clear that I love to see people playing the games, talking about them and trying to complete them. I'm always happy to see reviews and I also value constructive criticism because it often means I go back and improve things.

All of this stuff makes a valuable contribution to a lively community. The only thing I am against is the posting of full walkthrough videos within a few days of release with no commentary or discussion, and, as has been established, we authors are quite within our rights to request that these not be published.
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R-Tape
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by R-Tape »

PaulJ wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:27 am
By the way.. Titanic.. the ship sinks and he dies at the end... see.. no effort at all and I've just ruined the experience :-)
Aye but if that message is spread into a 10 min youtube video, titled "Titanic walkthrough", then I wouldn't call it a spoiler. Anyone watching it would have a decent idea of what to expect.
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Daren
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by Daren »

Where's the bit in there that mentions about "especially if it involves no critical analysis or discussion."?

That page states that all gameplay/walkthrough videos are copyright infringements. Nothing about it being more acceptable if there's critical analysis or discussion involved.
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by highrise »

All gameplay footage is used at the discretion of the publisher. In general, videos in which games are reviewed or discussed are tolerated, or even encouraged by authors because not only do they bring in additional ideas, they also move into what would be considered fair use, much in the same way that you review a film or a music album. You may include short clips, but you don't publish the whole thing.

The real point is though, that someone like Alessandro does get to decide which videos are published that include his work. It is likely that, like me, he would encourage reviews (even negative ones if they are constructive) and discussion, and discourage ones which are nothing more than arbitrary game footage with no additional content or context.

So to answer the question more simply - it's more acceptable by virtue of the fact that it's more likely to be accepted by the creator.
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jetsetdanny
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

I hoped we would find some mutually acceptable middle ground, but I can see we won't. So let me summarise the situation very plainly:

My walkthrough of "The Perils of Willy" was taken down from a website, because someone didn't like the fact that it was there.

The walkthrough I recorded was not of some experimental, development or beta version of a computer program. It was of a publicly released product which the author is encouraging people to pay for. I paid for it. I purchased it.

My walkthrough was denied to the public, because someone didn't like the fact that it was available.

This is censorship. This is what happens in totalitarian regimes. Some books are never published, because someone doesn't want them to be available to the public. Some movies are never screened, because someone does not allow them to be made public. Things are taken down from websites, because someone doesn't like them and decides they shouldn't be there.

My walkthrough was denied to the public this week. Your walkthrough may be denied to the public next week. Or maybe your review, because it will be too short, or showing too little respect for the author's hard work put into creating the game, or encouraging the players to wolf the game down too quickly, contrary to the author's fantasies of how the players should play his game.

When I go to a bookstore and buy a book, I can read it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to read it. I can read it slowly and thoroughly, I can skim-read it or scan it, I can read just one chapter if I want, or half a chapter. I may not read it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.

When I buy a computer game, I can play it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to play it. I can play it as is, I can use POKEs or Rollback, I can save and reload snapshots. I can play it for ten hours or for ten minutes. I may not play it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.

My recording was denied to the public because the author of this particular game (or, to be exact: remake of another author's game) wants to enforce – by banning videos – a vision he has of how his games should be enjoyed by the players. He is ready to deny the public the freedom of choice whether or not to watch – before, during, after or without playing the game – a recording of how the game can be completed in order to enforce his fantasies of what should be happening once people have purchased his game – how they should be struggling to complete the consecutive levels in an “honourable” way, comment and write reviews to express their respect for him and his effort while he would be basking in the true spirit of retrogaming.

I can understand that authors can have views on how they think it would be best that people enjoyed their games, and some preferences in this regard. However – both as an author and a player – I am categorically against their trying to enforce their views, illusions and fantasies by withholding information (such as visual solutions to their games) from the public, banning videos and having things taken down from websites.

If you want people to enjoy your games the way you envisage they should, make them so attractive that people will want to play them, taking their time, savouring them like a good meal, even if they have seen their walkthroughs recorded on video. Make your games so thrilling that people will want to write reviews and comments about them independently of whether there are videos of walkthroughs available on the web. If “honourable” actions are an important concept for you, respect the players’ rights and win their respect through a positive engagement, rather than trying to enforce it by blocking access to information, having things taken down from websites and promoting censorship.
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highrise
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Re: The Perils of Willy

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My walkthrough of "The Perils of Willy" was taken down from a website, because someone didn't like the fact that it was there.

The walkthrough I recorded was not of some experimental, development or beta version of a computer program. It was of a publicly released product which the author is encouraging people to pay for. I paid for it. I purchased it.

My walkthrough was denied to the public, because someone didn't like the fact that it was available.
It was taken down because the recording enabled the full download of the game to be available in a format that was not approved. The game is freely available for anyone to download from the itch.io page.
This is censorship. This is what happens in totalitarian regimes. Some books are never published, because someone doesn't want them to be available to the public. Some movies are never screened, because someone does not allow them to be made public. Things are taken down from websites, because someone doesn't like them and decides they shouldn't be there.
No, it isn't, it's denial of distibution of something which is available elsewhere.
When I go to a bookstore and buy a book, I can read it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to read it. I can read it slowly and thoroughly, I can skim-read it or scan it, I can read just one chapter if I want, or half a chapter. I may not read it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
Absolutely correct. But can you photocopy and publish that book? No, you can't. Is that censorship? no, it isn't.
When I buy a computer game, I can play it any way I want. The author will not be telling me how to play it. I can play it as is, I can use POKEs or Rollback, I can save and reload snapshots. I can play it for ten hours or for ten minutes. I may not play it at all if I decide it’s not worth it. It is my choice.
Absolutely correct. But again, you can't publish yourself doing that if it includes content that you did not create yourself. You can only do that with the consent of the author.
My recording was denied to the public because the author of this particular game (or, to be exact: remake of another author's game) wants to enforce – by banning videos – a vision he has of how his games should be enjoyed by the players. He is ready to deny the public the freedom of choice whether or not to watch – before, during, after or without playing the game – a recording of how the game can be completed in order to enforce his fantasies of what should be happening once people have purchased his game – how they should be struggling to complete the consecutive levels in an “honourable” way, comment and write reviews to express their respect for him and his effort while he would be basking in the true spirit of retrogaming.
Absolutely incorrect. I asked that full walkthrough recordings not be published in the first two weeks of the game being out.

The thing is, I think it's clear just how reasonable I've been. I've been polite, I've been tolerant, I've apologised when I was a bit rude, and I've explained and justified everything. I made a game that anyone can download and play for free if they wish. They can use pokes, rollbacks, whatever. If I published it on real cassette they could wipe their behind on it if they wanted to. In addition, they can express their views of the game, or about me, in public, just as they are doing here. However, publishing footage of the game is always at the author's discretion, and in my particular case, I am not in favour of full walkthroughs being published in the first two weeks of a game's release. This is also the case for most of the coders I have spoken to about it. This is because we have the freedom to decide how our work is used publicly. You have the freedom to decide how it is used privately.

And as for the idea that someone like me who has created a considerable amount of free software and tutorial videos, and actively encourages people to write new games should be shot down in flames and compared to a totalitarian fascist for asking politely for a two week embargo? I'll put that one down to the current situation and the extra tension and pressure we are all under. Stay safe everyone.
Last edited by highrise on Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jetsetdanny
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Re: The Perils of Willy

Post by jetsetdanny »

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:04 am
Whether you agree with this or not is not really the point. As you say, once you own a game you can do whatever you like.
You don't own "The Perils of Willy", Allen. You don't own the title, you don't own the character and you don't own the screen layouts if they are the same as in the original game. The IP rights holder who has the rights to the original game - whoever it is today - owns these things.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
Before I answer that, I want to make the very clear point that I am producing work which anyone can use for free, and I'm not 'telling' anyone what to do. The only thing I did was to ask that people don't publish the game being played in its entirety for the first few weeks. I wasn't forcing anyone to do anything
For all practical purposes, you forced the RZX Archive not to make my recording of the game available to the public.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
As regards the game itself, this is an entirely different discussion, and not one which changes the point I made.
It does. If you don't own the game fully, you can't usurp full rights to it, like being able to deny people the right to post videos.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
However, if I did have to defend it I would point out the following:

- no code from the Vic-20 game was used in the making of this game.
- the game is based on a reverse engineered version of the Manic Miner code. It does not use original source code, and is not a hack of any original code.
You don't have any rights to the Manic Miner code. The IP rights holder who is the legal heir of the Software Projects does. I suspect it may be the same entity that holds the rights to "The Perils of Willy".

Incidentally, I don't understand your references to a "reverse engineered version of the Manic Miner code". Reverse engineering is the reproduction of another manufacturer's product following detailed examination of its construction or composition. You didn't have to carry out such an examination, because the code is well known, its complete disassembly has been available online for years.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
- although the levels are based on the Vic-20 game they are built from scratch and due to alternative mechanics, play entirely differently to the original.
The mechanics may be different, but if the visual aspect and layout are the same or very similar, the IP rights holder could still claim you infringed them.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
I would argue therefore that the only issue would be the question of IP. It is possible that using the title of the game, and the use of the character may infringe in that instance. If this is the case however, this would not only apply to this game, but to every other mod of Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy, including the ones made by Danny.
This is not entirely correct. Every other mod of MM and JSW - including those made by me - can be considered to be infringing the IP rights related to the game engine or parts thereof, because they all use at least parts of the original game engines (which defines them as MM and JSW games for me).

Some games do not infringe any IP rights related to the game character or the visual aspect. Games like "Terry The Turtle" have nothing to do with the original characters or concepts whatsoever.

The difference between us is that I have never asked anyone to pay or donate anything for downloading my games and I have never made a penny out of designing them. You have.

highrise wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 am
As I said, it's a totally different argument. If someone wants to push the button on that nuclear option and get the game withdrawn, that is their prerogative. All I did was ask people not to post complete walkthroughs of the game in the first two weeks.
You did not hesitate to use the nuclear option to have my walkthrough removed. And, on your website, your are not asking people not to post complete walkthroughs of your remake of "The Perils of Willy" for two weeks: you are asking people not to post full 'walkthrough' videos "for now". You might want to change that if it is indeed a "two-week rule" you are trying to impose in the spirit of censorship.
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+3code
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Re: The Perils of Willy

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PaulJ wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:27 am
By the way.. Titanic.. the ship sinks and he dies at the end...
WHAT?! Nooooo :o
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