C64 Standard Bitmap Mode (320 x 200)

[AndyC]

Describing the exact limitations of the C64 screen display is always a bit difficult, because it isn't quite a simple as "In mode X you have N*M pixels with Z colours". And that's even before you start getting into the kind of tricks modern developers pull to lift certain limitations.

As to the "low res" bit, I don't think it's a bad as people sometimes make out. It's not that far off from the horizontal resolution of the Speccy and the blurry nature of old school CRT displays definitely helped somewhat. I personally think the limitations around shared colours and the washed out ones in the unique-per-tile ones really don't help much. Having drawn a fair few bits for the CPC (which has a similar 160*200 screen) having better colour density can massively improve the achievable results.

[catmeows]

Well, I wonder, if Speccy would have similar hi-color mode, say 128*192 with 2 global and two local colors per attribute cell, what would be preffered mode. Hires or hicolor ?

[p13z]

One of the reasons the Speccy didn't look as "blocky" as some other machines at the time was simply that the border area is huge, and the video output was a bit fuzzy / bleedy. In the early eighties I had access to a PC and a Speccy. Games on the PC looked awful and blocky compared to the Speccy, even though higher res - just because they took up the whole screen, and the pixels were sharply defined on the monitor (similar situation with some BBC machines).
I remember being shocked at how bad the C64 graphics were when I first had a real play with one. They looked great as little screenshots on the back of a cassette case, with their huge palette of colour, but the resolution didn't hold up to TV size.

[Pegaz]

Certainly, it's not easy to describe all the C64 graphics capabilities.
There are also custom graphics modes, which allow stunung pictures, with or without interlaced techniques.
Here's a brief description of these modes:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Graphics_Modes
http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm

One of the most interesting is the hi-res NUFLI mode discovered about 10 years ago, which allows impressive images without interlacing!
I don't know exactly how this mode works but the pictures look great.
https://sites.google.com/site/nuflibase64/nufli-images

Here are some videos as examples of this and other modes mentioned above:
Most of them look great even on emulators, but on real C64 and CRT it looks fantastic.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP9Sa7HFVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e95g9rbE9EQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUprwhQTZY

[Ersh]

NUFLI / MUIFLI are pretty impressive looking, as a static image in a demo or even as a streaming REU movie. Never seen it used in a game, seem to remember it requires quite a few cycles and memory (well FLI should require accurate timing at least), also all sprites are being used in displaying the image. Maybe a graphical text adventure could be done or something.

I love the subdued c64 palette, especially from an art standpoint. Feel the CPC's colours are a bit too over-saturated, which is fine for some art but looks pretty garish otherwise.

I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from.

[Pegaz]

NUFLI / MUIFLI are pretty impressive looking, as a static image in a demo or even as a streaming REU movie. Never seen it used in a game, seem to remember it requires quite a few cycles and memory (well FLI should require accurate timing at least), also all sprites are being used in displaying the image. Maybe a graphical text adventure could be done or something.

I love the subdued c64 palette, especially from an art standpoint. Feel the CPC's colours are a bit too over-saturated, which is fine for some art but looks pretty garish otherwise.

I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from.

I don’t know the answer to that question and I honestly don’t care.
It's much more interesting to learn something new about these unofficial c64 graphics modes.
Here is the link where I found a lot of nice examples and descriptions, just expand "World First -Graphics" section:
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recoll ... d_of_demos

Some of the most interesting modes are MUCSU FLI, NUFLI, UFLI (non interlaced):





...as well as TRI-FLI and MUIFLI (interlaced):

[akeley]

I never got the whole "brown" thing when talking about the c64, I mean trees and wood are brown, mud and some rocks are brown... you've got a brown colour why not use it? Should I use red instead? Can someone give me a few examples of the overuse of brown? Would be fun to see where this came from.

Look at Pegaz's post above, it's a perfect example. Also, Joefish has explained it earlier: viewtopic.php?p=43131#p43131

[Ersh]

Look at Pegaz's post above, it's a perfect example. Also, Joefish has explained it earlier: viewtopic.php?p=43131#p43131

I'm quite familiar with the c64 hardware and already aware of the limitations Joefish wrote about, I even mentioned it before Joefish's post.

My point is, I haven't seen brown being overused in many games, take a look at the lemon64 top 100 list, not too many games there that uses predominantly the colour brown. Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)

I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either. Brown, given the limitations, is the most natural shade for human skin here. Sure beats red or yellow.

[Pegaz]

Exactly.
If we take things out of context like this, we can always get the conclusion we want.
Form over substance, I would say...
So, back to the topic, heres a video as a perfect example about C64 graphics capabilities... and without too much brown around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqXWqT2HyE

[akeley]

Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)

Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly

I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either.

Well, I do - see above Brown and sickly green. But, arguing about colours is a surefire way to a loop of pointlessness, so I'll pass. It's a bit like when one man's "subdued" is another's "bland", I guess.

In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).

That's something which I struggle to get along with because a) it's clearly not true b) I have no problem in talking about flaws and limitations, even in my supposed "favourites", ie Amiga/Spectrum.

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.

[ketmar]

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors.

not hard at all. many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours. here it is.

it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)

[Pegaz]

Of course, trees, wood, rocks, mud, skin etc. are allowed to be brown (why would they not?)

Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly

I don't think the pictures Pegaz posted overuses brown either.

Well, I do - see above Brown and sickly green. But, arguing about colours is a surefire way to a loop of pointlessness, so I'll pass. It's a bit like when one man's "subdued" is another's "bland", I guess.

In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).

That's something which I struggle to get along with because a) it's clearly not true b) I have no problem in talking about flaws and limitations, even in my supposed "favourites", ie Amiga/Spectrum.

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.

That's not disputable at all, every computer has its weaknesses, C64 is no exception.
The problem is, when the discussion is quickly transferred from the facts to the "brown blocky breadbin commode" argument, which happened very often.
However, if we want to be precise, the topic was started about the Hi-Res capabilities on the c64, we saw that they are pretty good and that's it.
The latest Atic Atac or Ultimate filmation 3d ports are probably the final proof of that..

[akeley]

it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me.

Can you quote me an example from my posts where I'm saying that ZX Spectrum is far superior?

It's the second time you're doing this low-blow thing, so it shouldn't be too hard, right?

And while you're looking, pay attention to the multiple times I am actually saying it about C64. There is even one where I'm saying ZX is the weakest.

Have fun

[Ersh]

Because it's possible to represent them in other colours as well, and because we are not talking about examples where brown is legitimately used, but general overuse of its many shades. I mean I suppose you could also say that this lady's dress, Arnies' blood, bird's feathers, the inscription, etc can be brown too, but this is getting a bit silly

Of course they can be represented by other colours, but it's never wrong to use brown where it naturally would occur. The pictures Pegaz posted aren't in any character mode and doesn't suffer the same limitations as most games, so the colour choices there were entirely up to the artists.

Well, I do - see above Brown and sickly green.

Instead of bright red and yellow? False colours are used in all sorts of art.

In fact it's probably time for me to bail out of this thread altogether, because I'm starting to have a deja vu from watching similar binary discussions on other dedicated micro forums. The cultish template is that Our Machine is always best-in-everything - it has no flaws, and the alleged ones are quickly rationalized away or disproven with a non-representative demo or a solitary example (same as in many recent posts ITT).

I think you're being a bit unfair here, I never said the c64 was without flaws. I was genuinely interested in seeing some examples, as I never understood the whole "brown" thing. Still don't.

So, I'm not sure why it is so hard to admit that many C64's games have suffered from lower-res and ugly colours vs its competitors. In the end it's still the best machine overall, and one I'd take to a desert island if I was forced to (on the strenght of its library of "big" games such as Pirates! thou, not the gfx itself). I have no need to perceive it as some unattainable, fantastical ideal though.

Admit? As in you're stating a fact? I believe the "ugly" colours are a highly subjective topic, certainly nothing one must "admit" anything to. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just saying people's taste differ. And yes, most games ran at a lower resolution, never tried to deny that.

If I had to choose a single 80's micro to be stranded on a desert island with, I'd take the Spectrum any day. I don't use it because it was superior hardware-wise in any way, I use it because, to me, it has the better games. Best community as well.

[PeterJ]

Can we bring this back to my original question

[Pegaz]

Can we bring this back to my original question

Here's some more detailed information that might be useful:

https://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/docs/ ... re-c64.htm
https://dustlayer.com/index-vic-ii/
https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/ ... The_64.php

[ketmar]

it is obvious that ZX Spectrum is far superior!

sorry again. but really, can anobody resist it? definitely not me. ;-)

Can you quote me an example from my posts where I'm saying that ZX Spectrum is far superior?

It's the second time you're doing this low-blow thing, so it shouldn't be too hard, right? ;)

And while you're looking, pay attention to the multiple times I am actually saying it about C64. There is even one where I'm saying ZX is the weakest.

Have fun :D

oh, sorry, it's not an attack, it is just my weird sense of humor. i mean, Speccy fanboy should say this, and such thread should have at least one fanboy. so i'm pretending to be that one.

[Ersh]

Was this mode used for many games and was it popular?

Some Spectrum ports like Skool Daze and The Great Escape most likely used the standard bitmap mode. Elite possibly also uses it on the upper part of the screen with a raster split to change to multi-colour for the UI (similar to the BBC).

[akeley]

The pictures Pegaz posted aren't in any character mode and doesn't suffer the same limitations as most games, so the colour choices there were entirely up to the artists.

And it does not strike you as odd that they've made those colour choices in all these random pics?

I think you're being a bit unfair here, I never said the c64 was without flaws. I was genuinely interested in seeing some examples, as I never understood the whole "brown" thing. Still don't.
[...]
I believe the "ugly" colours are a highly subjective topic, certainly nothing one must "admit" anything to. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just saying people's taste differ.

I was using plural "you" because it seems to me that was the general consensus ITT, and I'm also recalling all the aforementioned arguments from elsewhere. Overall, yes, colours and perception are subjective - said as much myself when I said arguing about it would be pointless. And yet, I still think it's subjective to a point, as in, most people would probably agree that vibrant, natural colours (which you've called "garish") are a better choice.

Of course it does not mean people should not enjoy or create stuff with C64 palette. In a way I do it myself these days, same with the "blocky" gfx, it has its peculiar charm and gives every machine's gfx a distinct look.

If I had to choose a single 80's micro to be stranded on a desert island with, I'd take the Spectrum any day. I don't use it because it was superior hardware-wise in any way, I use it because, to me, it has the better games. Best community as well.

Sure, it certainly has its share of unforgettable titles. I made my choice with a heavy heart but can't pass on a machine which boasts the likes of Pool Of Radiance and Pirates!

Unfortunately finding a 'community' on a desert island could pose a problem

[AndyC]

I'm not sure why they "brown" thing is the major complaint of C64 graphics. Yes brown and grey were often used as the shared colours, presumably because of the limits mentioned previously, but it was usually not too bad. It probably doesn't help that the washed out palette tended to mean that "red" looked rather more brown too though.

For me, the fact that C64 games often seemed to have a three colour background was far more jarring. The resolution trade off doesn't seem quite so good when you aren't getting the full benefit of extra colours. Of course it happens because, unlike the character map, the colour ram in the C64 is in a fixed position so it's much harder to scroll, so it's easier if the colours remain consistent on screen.

[PeterJ]

I've heard the Spectrum colours described as garish, and the C64 colours described as dull (or washed out as mentioned above).

I think it's all very much down to personal taste (just pop down to B&Q and look at the huge range of paint colours to suit all tastes) and we can appreciate both options. I like looking at the same game over multiple platforms.

For me personally I prefer the Spectrum 'garish' tones, but that's just my personal preference. People see colours very differently

I know emulators are not everyone's cup of tea, but I love the ability to look at games side by side or games exclusive to one machine that I don't have the hardware for (with the understanding that colours may not be reproduced exactly as intended), without having to spend £100s on eBay.

Thanks for all the interesting information that you have all provided.

I'm off to play Creatures 2!

[Joefish]

Another problem is not just 'Brown', but 'Orange' is actually brown, 'Pink' is a bit brown (admittedly, together they're pretty good for flesh tones, but that is only because they're all a bit brown). 'Purple' looks like they took magenta and mixed it with brown, 'Red' is a kind of rusty red - otherwise known as brown - and both shades of blue look like a bit of the brown-tinted purple has leaked into them. Just look, both shades of blue have a hint of purple about them!

Why can't we have a machine with the 8 vibrant RGB colours, then 8 others with the orange, brown, pink, green, grey etc. as smudgy as you like?

Honestly, when I look at the page in that Retro Gamer Speccy/C64 book that's got 100 C64 screenshots, I'd swear I was looking at a page where one of the printer's colour inks had run out. The colour cast is that major.

[ketmar]

offtopic about emulators

I know emulators are not everyone's cup of tea

sidenote: i always owned computer monitor for Speccy (just a sheer luck, tbh), yet it was b/w. so i've never seen those Speccy half-toned game screens blurred as intended. and for a long time i chose colors for my Speccy software by only looking at monochrome intensity. i wish i still have some of those programs, i'd like to look at 'em now. ;-)

anyway, today i don't have Good Old CRT TV too. so i still won't be able to see Teh Right Colors And Bluring. so emulators are much more authentic for me than any "real hardware". and if the emu has b/w setting (ZXEmuT have it, now you know why ;-), it is almost 100% "real" from my PoV.

so, "Emulators Are Not Real" is the same fanboyism as "C64 rox/sux, Speccy sux/rox", and even not true in some cases like mine.

and thank you for reading this. but didn't i told you that this is offtopic right from the start? ;-)

[Pegaz]

I think it's more a matter of taste, than the real problem, in other words whether someone prefers more vibrant or more realistic color palette.
I read somewhere that part of the problem may be that the C64, like some other US computers, is designed primarily for the NTSC format.
Just found a couple of videos where we can see pictures from the NTSC C64 machine.
It doesn't look washed out to me, of course it has brown color, but it is there for the purpose of getting a realistic digitized images.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3VNDstKx3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgM6KVdae3Y

Also, every TV has the ability to increase color saturation if needed.
At the end of the day, a capable programmer will find a way to avoid the shortcomings of each system and take advantage of the machine he is working on.
Everything else is splitting hair into four...

[Ersh]

Another problem is not just 'Brown', but 'Orange' is actually brown, 'Pink' is a bit brown (admittedly, together they're pretty good for flesh tones, but that is only because they're all a bit brown). 'Purple' looks like they took magenta and mixed it with brown, 'Red' is a kind of rusty red - otherwise known as brown - and both shades of blue look like a bit of the brown-tinted purple has leaked into them. Just look, both shades of blue have a hint of purple about them!

Yes, that makes much more sense. That's probably the origin of the whole "brown" thing. Not an overuse of a single colour but a slight orange (as well as somewhat desaturated) tint to all shades.

As a painter I still like the c64 palette the best with its more natural and earthy tones, wish the colour red was a bit brighter though. That said; I can still appreciate the saturation of the ZX/CPC palettes.