Pricing up the MiSTER

[PeterJ]

With a great deal of help from [mention]akeley[/mention] I having been pricing up the MiSTer. I'm not ready to buy one yet (I need to sell some stuff first), but here we go.

All prices are as at today, and are for the UK:

Digi-Key - DE10 Kit - £118.63 (Including VAT & Delivery)

https://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detai ... ND/6817231

Fan & Heatsink - £8.49 (Includes VAT & Delivery)
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... -heatsink/

USB Hub - £32.99 (Includes VAT & Delivery)
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/usb-hu ... ster-fpga/

32MB RAM - £19.99 (Includes VAT & Delivery)
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... don-board/

Power Cable Splitter £3.89 (Includes VAT & Delivery)
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... ter-cable/

WiFi Adaptor - £6.99 (Includes VAT & Delivery)
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister ... i-adapter/

So total price is £190.98 (Assuming you are paying VAT, which most people will have to unless they can charge to their company)

This equates to $266, or 220 Euros. You may have some of the bits already which would slightly reduce the above prices.

Hopefully I have this right [mention]akeley[/mention] - Digikey were cheaper than Mouser.

[akeley]

You can do without the USB hub, cable splitter and WiFi dongle, these are "luxury" items (especially the USB). So that makes it closer to ~200USD / 165 E. Granted, the prices went a bit up (and $/GBP fluctuates madly because of IRL) from when I was buying it, but considering it's the most comprehensive (and the best updated, which can save you a lot of headaches) FPGA solution it's really worth paying a bit more IMO.

To me, the other boards only make sense when you really need some specialized function they offer, (eg the Next core) or are on a strict budget.

[PeterJ]

How many USB connectors are on the DE10 [mention]akeley[/mention]?

This is a useful guide as it shows what the developers consider essential:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... ith-MiSTer

[Pegaz]

Maybe it would be better to move this discussion to a new topic, dedicated to MiSTer and similar fpga boards, or it will all go offtopic again.

[akeley]

Yes, it's a useful guide As you can see from it there are 3 options for USB: first two are obtainable for a few quid on ebay (many people already have them at home for use with PCs), and the third one (expensive) is the one you've picked. I also wrote it all up in my PMs, where you had the BASIC and FLUSH options.

Yes, it's definitely off topic

[PeterJ]

Topic split as requested.

[namco]

If you still want to load tapes then I suggest this:

Audio Tape Input
https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/adc-in ... put-board/

[hitm4n]

I built one recently, and i made a couple of mistakes and would make different choices now.

Firstly, i assumed the IO board i got would come with heatsink and fan. It didn't. Had to buy later which delayed my build.

If you do buy the USB board, as i did, it does provide a place for a wifi dongle, a bluetooth dongle and dongles for multiple controllers and wired keyboards and mice, even wired usb controllers. I absolutely would buy the USB board. Currently i use 3 of the ports but i know i have more for other controllers if needs be and i have at one point used 4 ports at once so far. Yes, other cheaper solutions are out there but don't look so pretty, or offer as many ports, or are as reliably tested with the rest of the MiSTer. People have had issues with 3rd party ones.

So. That USB board needs power. I didn't realise this, thought it would come from the DE10 board through the bus (or summats), so i didn't get a power splitter cable initially. (Another delay to the build). I have since bought one, but i still want to change it. If like me, you want this to permanently live somewhere and you don't want to have to keep pulling the plug out of both the DE10 board and USB board (which will break it over time) or reaching for the power switch on the socket, which i cannot do as its hidden behind a cable tidy structure, then an inline switch is a must-have. So now i either want a new power supply that has one, or a power splitter cable that has one.

QUESTION: Anyone have ideas on a good, cheap, reliable and quickly implemented solution for a power switch, please link us up, thanks?

Back to the USB board. Using the "proper" board will look nicer when it comes to official MiSTer cases. I bought the orange lava neon style top and bottom plates, which are quite cheap but look amazing. However, i think i would prefer a full cover case now, some of the aluminium ones look amazing.

Like you, i bought the 32mb memory card. I wish i'd bought the 128mb one now, and i think if you look on the MiSTer forums, theres a new one coming thats either revised or even larger. Not sure on timescales but you might want to wait a little. The 128mb board will give you full NeoGeo rom support and is used by a handful of roms on other systems too. I wish now i hadn't limited myself to the 32mb model.

And finally the top IO board. Unless you absolutely need to output to a CRT and you absolutely need a few more LEDs and buttons on top (reset, menu and i don't even know what the 3rd one does), then if i did it again, i wouldn't buy the IO board. I am outputting from HDMI and its just perfect (even for Amiga). I bought it for the extra SD card slot and what i thought was an included power switch. It isn't a power switch and i've since found out the SD card slot is only used by a handful of cores and its not a path for adding "more roms".

QUESTION: Is it worth having the IO board if VGA is not something you need? What else does it do that might be required for certain cores.

I'm not unhappy with what i got, the few neogeo roms i cannot run, i won't cry over that. The IO board does allow me to use it for things in future and the extra buttons were handy initially with resetting and building the thing. Now its done i don't need tro reset it anywhere near as much as at the beginning. Anyway, you can always pull the power if you want to reset it, or use that inline power switch that you SHOULD get.

My real issue is i wanted to get it right first time and not waste any money. But i had to get the heatsink and fan extra, i had to buy the power splitter cord, i should have got the 128mb memory.

QUESTION: Is it worth having a realtime clock. I don't have one, haven't really seen any reason for one. If i got one would i need the IO board?

So there you go PeterJ. I hope my story helps out. And the answers to the posed questions might also help you make your decisions.
Goo luck with it. I don't regret buying mine for a second. Its an amazing thing to play with.

[akeley]

My real issue is i wanted to get it right first time and not waste any money. But i had to get the heatsink and fan extra, i had to buy the power splitter cord, i should have got the 128mb memory.

I was one of the people who has originally advised you on eab. I always advocate for the cheapest setup, but other things were also mentioned like the fact that some NeoGeo games won't work with 32MB. The thing is, you then ignored all the advice and went and bought everything, I/O and all, on the basis that it "looks good"

There really is no need to buy I/O board and USB board if somebody is on a budget. I can't stress it hardly enough.

It's pretty much the same with 128 SDRAM: some people are not interested in arcade games, and there really is only a handful of those which won't work (If you are really into arcade you will always need a MAME setup anyway). I'm not aware of any other cores which need 128 MB, if you do, please mention them.

[PeterJ]

Thank you [mention]hitm4n[/mention],

Is the supplied PSU OK? I believe it comes with a USA plug? I have adaptors, but they never seem to create a reliable connection.

All useful stuff.
Peter

[hitm4n]

I didn't ignore the advice, and was glad for it, thank you. I took it on board, got advice in other places too and summised my own decisions. Some i now regret and i've learned from that and want to pass on my findings. I wasn't on a tight budget, but i also don't like wasting money. The IO board and USB i feel are not wasted, glad i got them actually, but i'm not 100% sure i would buy them again. It was more the lack of fan/heatsink (most sellers show one fitted to the board when purchasing, hell maybe they even do include it, but mine didn't come with one) and the lack of power switch and the limited memory i got. The decison to get the 32mb memory was "i don't need every NeoGeo rom", but i have read somewhere that some other roms in other cores do use more than 64mb memory and i've since decided that i do want all the NeoGeo roms. I'm a bit of a hoarder and completionist, so now i feel i'm missing a few games and am kicking myself for imposing that limitation on my setup. Aside from that, who knows what cores and support comes down the road, maybe a new Playstation core appears that needs 128mb memory as standard. I don't recall where i read it, but it would have been on the official MiSTer forums, someone definately said "other cores use it".

You are right. USB not required, can use cheap OTG one. 128mb not required, can get by on 32mb, as i am now. No USB board and IO board means no need to upgrade PSU either, something i also had to buy extra. The link further up on MiSTer site that recommends "requirements" is spot on and recommends a larger PSU if using the USB board, so i followed that and its another small cost added.

Actually i came back to mention about the PSU upgrade if using the USB board. Its something else to consider.

[hitm4n]

Thank you @hitm4n, Is the supplied PSU OK? I believe it comes with a USA plug? I have adaptors, but they never seem to create a reliable connection.

You're welcome The PSU is fine but... and actually, this was another surprise, yes it comes with an American plug and i wasn't about to stick that in a shaver plug. Like you say its all a bit flimsy like that.

But as i had also bought the USB board and IO board i decided to get an upgraded PSU as recommended anyway. Wish i'd bought one that had an inline switch and splitter though (if that even exists). I bought a PSU from a recommended MiSTer parts seller in UK and it came with the splitter adsdon, but no switch. Considering a switch is pretty important in my opinion for a MiSTer i am surprised that the MiSTer stockists don't sell one.

I can provide the place i bought my stuff from but all the links are on my other PC which is doing a harddrive partition move at the moment so i don't have access. I'll pop back later today with some links. I'm not unhappy with anything i bought or where i got it from.

A lot of it came from MiSTerFPGA site and the DE-10 from.... i forgot. Check back later, i'll fill you in.
Simon.

[PeterJ]

Thanks both,

I think the thing I have learnt is that you don't need to spend £300+ unless you really want too. It's rather like Lego in that you can build to your own requirements and budgets, and that's the fun!

[hitm4n]

LOL - I keep thinking of things i want to add.

So regarding a case. If you plan to put it all inside an Amiga shell, or a Spectrum case, or some keyboard or random wooden box, then aesthetics is not so much a concern of the individual parts. This then means the USB board is less important and the cheaper OTG one lends itself well as its all hidden away. I would still be careful and try to choose a tried and tested one though. The MiSTer forums are a great place to see peoples builds and get tips.

So what do you plan to do with the build? I'm very much considering a 3D printer next (did i say i was recently divorced and i can buy whatever the hell i want now) So mine might end up in some custom 3D printed case in the not so distant future.

[azesmbog]

A standard power supply with a flat plug, which creates some difficulties.
Memory, I think 32MB is not enough, at least 64 or more if there are no problems with it.
Everything else - to taste, desire and wallet.
oh yes, many years ago DE10 nano cost me $ 90 + $ 60 shipping by a shipping company. : (((((((((

[akeley]

Memory, I think 32MB is not enough, at least 64 or more if there are no problems with it.

Sigh

Let me just say this: I have been using MiSTer for about 8 months now, tested most cores, and I have not seen anything which wouldn't work.
I do have 64MB but I did extensive research beforehand and only got it to have more NeoGeo games working. I've never seen anybody mention the need for more than 32MB for other stuff (at least which wouldn't be then sorted out later, like A8 cartridges).

If you know otherwise please post links, so we can have some concrete information.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... -use-SDRAM

The irony is also the fact that people who got the 128MB have learned recently that it might be flawed in regard to new stuff (during the development of the Cave shooter core), and many have been exchanged by the sellers.

[zx81]

An alternate option to 32MB & 128MB modules is to buy a 32MB SDRAM + 2MB SRAM module, that allow to use a future ZX Next core. When you don't want to run the bigger NeoGeo games, is a better option than 128MB module, IMHO.

[azesmbog]

Sigh.
I am, (hopefully , the owner of Mister number two, right after Alexei. He sent me a clean scarf for 32MB of memory personally with a dedication (just kidding, of course, but I had to ask, who knew: () And I collected it long before the official announcement. So I probably know how much memory is needed for each core ??
I have two homemade 32MB memory cards, but if I had bought more now, I probably would not have bought 32 more, but at least 64.
* Sighed two more times *

[hitm4n]

The issues with 128mb are discussed here - https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1668

A great guide to setting up, preparing for and buying parts for MiSTer is discussed here (where i see akelay stressing again theres no need for usb or 128mb) https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... hat#p11755

The guide is here http://www.cgquarterly.com/2020/04/28/b ... a-console/
This CGQuarterly guide is a site i referred to a lot when choosing what to buy and how to build.

And on CGQuarterly, rightly or wrongly i don't know, but its probably what i read when saying memory above 32mb is not just limited to neo-geo...
Copied from site "It’s possible to run many cores without a memory expansion module, but most cores require at least 32MB of SDRAM. However, a 128MB SDRAM module allows the loading of Game Boy Advance and Neo-Geo ROMs larger than 32MB, and therefore provides you with maximum compatibility."

And GameBoyAdvance was a concern for me. I set a budget though, i decided 128mb wasn't needed, but now i have changed my mind.

It is difficult to make ALL the right choices when different people offer different guidelines, but if you have the cash, i would choose not to limit yourself. I would be a little worried about the 128mb board issues though. You should contact the sellers, they are all good guys and i'm sure either the cores or a newer revision of the board has either been updated or is soon to come.

[akeley]

So I probably know how much memory is needed for each core ??

That's awesome, could you tell us more about it then? Eg: which cores require more than 32MB?

And on CGQuarterly, rightly or wrongly i don't know, but its probably what i read when saying memory above 32mb is not just limited to neo-geo...
Copied from site "It’s possible to run many cores without a memory expansion module, but most cores require at least 32MB of SDRAM. However, a 128MB SDRAM module allows the loading of Game Boy Advance and Neo-Geo ROMs larger than 32MB, and therefore provides you with maximum compatibility."

And GameBoyAdvance was a concern for me. I set a budget though, i decided 128mb wasn't needed, but now i have changed my mind.

It is difficult to make ALL the right choices when different people offer different guidelines, but if you have the cash, i would choose not to limit yourself. I would be a little worried about the 128mb board issues though. You should contact the sellers, they are all good guys and i'm sure either the cores or a newer revision of the board has either been updated or is soon to come.

Yes, there is a lot of misinformation regarding FPGA. The guide you linked to also has some clangers, which I pointed out in that thread, like saying you need IO board to connect to a CRT.

About GBA, this is from the official Wiki which I linked above:

Optional, Requires 33.5MB for 32MB games; will automatically use the onboard DDR3 RAM instead if SDRAM is not large enough

I wouldn't say that not buying 128 is "limiting itself". The difference in price is very substantial and honestly, it does not offer that much more, especially for people who might be interested only in microcomputers, for example.

As futureproofing, MiSTer is actually most likely at the end of its possibilities in regard to DE10 board and appearance opf new cores. PSX core, perhaps, but it's still a long way off.

[Pegaz]

What’s going on with that Next core for MiSTer, anyway ?
As far as I've seen, the Next implementation on ZX-DOS+ works flawlessly.

[PeterJ]

What’s going on with that Next core for MiSTer, anyway ?
As far as I've seen, the Next implementation on ZX-DOS+ works flawlessly.

The ZX-DOS+ uses the same FPGA as the Next [mention]Pegaz[/mention]. It works very well but does not provide the extra features that the Raspberry Pi Zero accelerator offers.

We are at danger of going off topic again here

[azesmbog]

Eg: which cores require more than 32MB?

Извиняюсь за мой французский!
Повторяю в последний раз! я прекрасно знаю сколько и кому требуется памяти на данный момент, но если завтра кто то все же выпустит новое ядро , например PS1 или N64, я буду очень и очень огорчен, что не смогу его запустить из-за недостатка памяти.
И это лично моя рекомендация, не экономить на памяти.
Простой пример, на моем компьютере , который собран для единственной игры установлено в данный момент 48 Гб памяти, и это уже мало. Можно конечно добавить еще 16 Гб, и это на ближайшее время хватит, но можно попытаться добавить 32Гб. Это личный пример. И все, на этом дискуссия по объему требуемой памяти с моей стороны окончена.
Sorry. Из России - с Любовью! (с)

Translate
Sorry for my French!
I repeat for the last time! I know perfectly well how much and who needs memory at the moment, but if tomorrow someone still releases a new kernel, for example PS1 or N64, I will be very, very upset that I cannot start it due to lack of memory.
And this is my personal recommendation not to save on memory.
A simple example, on my computer, which is built for a single game, 48 GB of memory is currently installed, and this is not enough. You can of course add another 16 GB, and this will be enough for the near future, but you can try to add 32 GB. This is a personal example. And that's all, this is the end of the discussion on the amount of memory required on my part.
Sorry. From Russia with love! (c)

[akeley]

I repeat for the last time! I know perfectly well how much and who needs memory at the moment, but if tomorrow someone still releases a new kernel, for example PS1 or N64, I will be very, very upset that I cannot start it due to lack of memory.
And this is my personal recommendation not to save on memory.
A simple example, on my computer, which is built for a single game, 48 GB of memory is currently installed, and this is not enough. You can of course add another 16 GB, and this will be enough for the near future, but you can try to add 32 GB. This is a personal example. And that's all, this is the end of the discussion on the amount of memory required on my part.
Sorry. From Russia with love! (c)

I did learn Russian at school, but that was 30+ years ago

Ok, on my part: I think it's bad advice to recommend spending extra 30GBP on something which might never be utilised, and certainly is not neeeded at the moment. N64 core is a pipedream, PSX at least a year away, and most importantly: not everybody is interested in having to "collect them all" (especially seeing as PSX or NeoGeo emualtion is extremely good atm).

Also, things move fast in MiSTer world, and as was already mentioned, some of the people who bought old 128MB modules found out that they won't work with the newest Cave core, and possibly future other ones, thus rendering this whole "futureproofing" angle moot. I think they were quite upset too.

It's funny, because I was actually thinking about the same in regard to PC The amount of people who will advise you to get 32 GB of RAM or 750W PSU is staggering, but in reality it is most likely a waste of money and resources.

[mention]Pegaz[/mention] the Next core is being worked on, it's been included in the main recently: https://github.com/benitoss/ZXNext_Mister

Thing is, it requires this special 32MB SDRAM with 2MB ram extension: https://manuferhi.com/p/dual-memory-for ... b-2mb-sram

I suppose it's a good deal/trade-off for somebody interested in the ZX scene. If I was putting it all together now I'd consider it.

[hitm4n]

Hi PeterJ. My journey to a built MiSTer on the EAB forum is here.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1 ... ost1452799
You will see all the questions i had, a lot of response, and i posted a fair heap of pictures.
I had a lot of fun building it.
Simon.