The Hobbit 128 unfinished?

[Art]

Was this mod ever finished?
[MOD] The Hobbit 128
The name of the TAP file is Hobbit128_BETA.tap, so I'd like to know if a finished version is available somewhere or if it's planned to finish.

[Einar Saukas]

Was this mod ever finished?
[MOD] The Hobbit 128
The name of the TAP file is Hobbit128_BETA.tap, so I'd like to know if a finished version is available somewhere or if it's planned to finish.

It's not finished yet, but I plan to get back to it soon.

The final version will contain more detailed location descriptions and I think certain screens could be even better. You can see some of this material here.

This project lost momentum after an "incident" and later I got too busy developing ZXDB. But I hate to leave games unfinished so this is still one of my priorities.

[Art]

Great! Thank you for the explanation.

[^m00h^]

Hi Einar,

any news with Hobbit ?

[Einar Saukas]

No news, sorry.

I'm still planning to finish it, but Real Life has been keeping me too busy lately...

[patters]

I liked the way The Register wrote up the 'incident'. The metaphor is very fitting:

https://www.theregister.com/2015/05/22/ ... r_dispute/

[Ralf]

Don't feel guilty, Einar. Many of us (including me) have 10 or 15 years old unfinished projects
gathering dust on their hard drives.

We have families, jobs, other hobbies and less power with each year getting older

You are doing an incredible job with ZXDB. If one day you'll find motivation to put final touches to Hobbit
then it's great. If it never happens then it's okay too.

[Einar Saukas]

Thanks for the encouragement!!!

[Pegaz]

I liked the way The Register wrote up the 'incident'. The metaphor is very fitting:

https://www.theregister.com/2015/05/22/ ... r_dispute/

Yes, it's an old story, which is practically over for me.
We've had the completed version for almost eight years now, and that's a good thing.
Of course, I don't mind Hobbit 128k continuing to improve.
If you want, you can read the discussion on that old wos thread and get a better picture of what's going on.
As for me, after all those years, I still stand by every word I wrote there..

[patters]

I liked the way The Register wrote up the 'incident'. The metaphor is very fitting:

https://www.theregister.com/2015/05/22/ ... r_dispute/

The penny finally drops...

So that's why Einar has an elf for an avatar. I did wonder.

[PeteProdge]

Don't feel guilty, Einar. Many of us (including me) have 10 or 15 years old unfinished projects gathering dust on their hard drives.

29 years in my case. I want to get my platform puzzle game 'Bud's Break' out to the wider world. (A decent version got a release on a monthly tape-based magazine I literally aimed at an audience of one person, which meant the only surviving copy has sat in a spare room in rural Lincolnshire but I'm told has recently been taken back to his parent's attic in my hometown. I just want to re-do the whole thing to be even better.)

We have families, jobs, other hobbies and less power with each year getting older

Yeah, just as I believe I get the time to dedicate to getting round to this Speccy stuff or to work on a retrogaming video, something in my other interests (live comedy, Tiswas, running, etc) takes over. In this case, a huge opportunity in comedy I can't miss, so again I park work on 'Arson About' (the version of Bud's Break I wanted to be released last year!)

I am someone who ignores the "progress over perfection" maxim, often doing the vice versa of it where possible. I know I shouldn't.

[Pegaz]

Was this mod ever finished?
[MOD] The Hobbit 128
The name of the TAP file is Hobbit128_BETA.tap, so I'd like to know if a finished version is available somewhere or if it's planned to finish.

Actually, the game was completed eight years ago (at least for many of us), but I just realized that for some reason, only this beta is here on SC.
So, no need to wait, here is the fully playable version, for those who haven't seen it yet:
http://www.codersnotes.com/files/hobbit ... bit128.zip

[Einar Saukas]

I just realized that for some reason, only this beta is here on SC.

That's because original author Veronika Megler authorized this modification under certain conditions. The other version doesn't respect those conditions therefore it's distribution denied.

[Pegaz]

That's because original author Veronika Megler authorized this modification under certain conditions. The other version doesn't respect those conditions therefore it's distribution denied.

This?
"Mod endorsed by original author Veronika Megler, under conditions that it's available free of charge, clearly states it's an independent revision not produced by Beam, and provides reference to obtain original version."

Which of these "conditions" are not met ?
Did Veronika Megler personally deny the distribution of fully assembled version and approve just this beta version, which you compiled later ?

[Einar Saukas]

This?
"Mod endorsed by original author Veronika Megler, under conditions that it's available free of charge, clearly states it's an independent revision not produced by Beam, and provides reference to obtain original version."

Which of these "conditions" are not met ?
Did Veronika Megler personally deny the distribution of fully assembled version and approve just this beta version, which you compiled later ?

Why do you sound so upset? I don't get it.

I mean, this is your 3rd consecutive post implying that you don't care about anyone's rights, or someone taking someone else's work on a game, as long as you can play it yourself for free. And hey, feel free to think whatever you want. I wasn't interested in arguing with you when you originally wrote it years ago, and I'm still not interested now when you wrote that you still stand by it. The only thing I posted afterwards was an answer to a direct question.

However I still don't get the reason that you apparently don't care when that happens to someone AND you even get upset with THAT person. What's going on?

Your latest question sounds much more like a complain or accusation. But OK, I will answer it anyway. Early during Hobbit128 development, I posted this information in the development thread:

https://worldofspectrum.org/forums/disc ... ent_765351

These were the conditions imposed by the original author for this mod. IMHO these are very reaonable conditions. I think it's straightforward to say that, the version that was released later ignoring these conditions is unauthorized, and the version that adhered to these conditions is authorized.

In these cases, ZXDB follows the same principles established by Martijn in the original WoS. One of them is that distribution of a mod respects the original author's approval or not.

[Pegaz]

It seems that you are upset, because someone noticed, that BETA version you put together is the only one that exists on this site, while the other one was practically censored and many new members didn't even know it existed.
I expected this kind of answer from you, but things are not exactly as you present them:
Veronika Megler still approves the project, regardless of the fact that she does not own the copyright to the game.
She confirmed this to me today and didnt mentioned any exclusive condition from her as author:

"So while I can endorse and approve of a project as an author of the game (and I do), I actually have no ownership of or say over the distribution rights of the software. I've never thought I had; so anyone who says that I've approved or denied distribution has likely misunderstood something I said, or, I worded it extremely poorly."

I know this is not an entirely satisfactory answer to your question, but it's the best I can do. - For what it's worth, I do still approve of the project,
Veronika Megler, PhD

So legally there is no difference between your BETA and the completed version from 2015, its just your decision to put other version away.
My only motive is to have both versions available in the database and for Spectrum fans to know that both exist.
Other than that, no one took anything from you, Kayamon just completed the game, very professionaly packed and never took any credit for himself.
We can disagree whether your arguments about continuing to work on the game were correct then or the opinion of the majority of us who supported its final appearance after a year of waiting, becouse you have other priorities.
Today I can freely claim that Kayamon made the right decision and completed the game, because as we can see, even after almost a decade, you didn't find time to do what you've been announcing all this years and again few days ago.
I'm glad you still intend to work on improving the game, but some of us didnt want to wait the whole life for it.

[Rorthron]

While I would like to see Einar's version when it arrives, there seems to be no reason not also to include Kayamon's excellent version in the archive. It appears to comply with all the conditions.

[Pegaz]

Of course that's my wish too, this version deserves to be here on SC and all I want is equal treatment.
Here, for example, is a great Turbo load version of the complete game, with a wonderful loading screen routine.
https://easyupload.io/avh93b

[Einar Saukas]

It seems that you are upset

No, I'm the one trying to avoid this useless discussion and you are the one that keeps pushing for it to happen.

because someone noticed, that BETA version you put together is the only one that exists on this site, while the other one was practically censored and many new members didn't even know it existed.

The Hobbit128 page contains 2 videos showing Kayamon's version. It also contains a link to The Spectrum Show review (that I added myself years ago) where Kayamon is the only person credited. If I'm trying to censor it and prevent new members from knowing that it exists, I'm doing a terrible job.

The only thing missing is the link to that version, because of exactly the same policy that we apply to all titles.

I expected this kind of answer from you, but things are not exactly as you present them:

So you kept pushing for this discussion to happen, so you could prove your point? Don't you have anything better to do???

Veronika Megler still approves the project, regardless of the fact that she does not own the copyright to the game.
She confirmed this to me today and didnt mentioned any exclusive condition from her as author:

"So while I can endorse and approve of a project as an author of the game (and I do), I actually have no ownership of or say over the distribution rights of the software. I've never thought I had; so anyone who says that I've approved or denied distribution has likely misunderstood something I said, or, I worded it extremely poorly."

I know this is not an entirely satisfactory answer to your question, but it's the best I can do. - For what it's worth, I do still approve of the project,
Veronika Megler, PhD

You posted her answer, but you forgot to post your question.

Let me guess. It's an obvious assumption that she won't remind an answer she gave 9 years ago. Therefore you first reminded her that, when she was contacted about this project, she already made it clear that she had no ownership of the original game. Also that she endorsed the project but had a few requests. You probably copied the link I gave you, with her own response at the time, to help remind her. Afterwards you clearly explained the current situation: 2 different versions got released, one of them respecting her requests but not the other. And that a preservation site is hosting just the version that respected her requests, based on its policy of considering the original author's requests regardless of ownership (the same policy applied to every other title). And then you asked for her opinion about it. Correct?

Or perhaps you simply told her that someone's claiming she approved one version and denied distribution of another, then asked her if that's true.

We will never know. Unless you post here the full email that you sent her, and her full answer (except for personal information obviously).

So legally there is no difference between your BETA and the completed version from 2015

Correct. Legally there's no difference.

its just your decision to put other version away.

No, it's the same old policy that we apply to all titles.

For instance, I really liked the Amaurote 128 mod and it was going to be added to the archive. However the Pickford brothers later expressed their disapproval, so it was never added.

My only motive is to have both versions available in the database and for Spectrum fans to know that both exist.
Other than that, no one took anything from you, Kayamon just completed the game, very professionaly packed

His technical skills were very professional, but his attitude wasn't.

and never took any credit for himself.

He's the only person credited in The Spectrum Show review. He's also credited in the Crash review.

We can disagree whether your arguments about continuing to work on the game were correct then or the opinion of the majority of us who supported its final appearance after a year of waiting, becouse you have other priorities.

That's not exactly how it happened.

We worked non-stop on this project for months. Then I took a break due to other priorities, but then I announced in February 2015 that I was getting back to this project at the end of that same month. However the WoS forum broke a few days after my answer, preventing the community effort to continue since all communication was done exclusively using the forum. The WoS forum was offline for 3 months, while I finished my other projects and then prepared the Hobbit128 BETA. However Kayamon released his version immediately after WoS forum was restored.

You can read all about it here:

https://worldofspectrum.org/forums/disc ... ent_823172

Today I can freely claim that Kayamon made the right decision and completed the game, because as we can see, even after almost a decade, you didn't find time to do what you've been announcing all this years and again few days ago.

It's the opposite. I had already got back to the project. It was already my main priority again at the time. The reason this project stopped being a top priority for me, is because of what happened. Not the opposite.

I'm glad you still intend to work on improving the game, but some of us didnt want to wait the whole life for it.

I do. I hate not finishing projects.

But it shouldn't be too hard to understand the reason I lost motivation after what happened. Thus I have no reason to prioritize this project over others anymore, it will have to wait.

Are you happy now?

[Rorthron]

Einar, instead of making a series of ad hominem arguments and personal attacks, it would be helpful if you addressed the question that Pegaz raised. You have now repeatedly claimed that Kayamon's version does not comply with Veronika Megler's stipulations. However, you have not provided any evidence to support your claim, despite writing at considerable length. The only evidence you have supplied is a link to Veronika Megler's email, which seems to contradict your claim:

"I have no objection at all to you making the revised version with improved graphics available, so long as it is at no charge, it's clear that this is a later revision made by you guys (not done by Beam), and that there is some kind of pointer to an original version (e.g. like the one in the Internet archive)."

Kayamon's version appears to comply with all these requirements. If you think otherwise, could you explain which of her requirements are not met and how?

[Ivanzx]

Kayamon credited only himself, when there were other people involved? Does not seem a very right thing to do

[Rorthron]

Kayamon credited only himself, when there were other people involved? Does not seem a very right thing to do

That's not correct. He credited it to World of Spectrum, not himself.

In any case, unless I'm mistaken, he was every bit as entitled to use the World of Spectrum discussion as Einar.

[Einar Saukas]

"I have no objection at all to you making the revised version with improved graphics available, so long as it is at no charge, it's clear that this is a later revision made by you guys (not done by Beam), and that there is some kind of pointer to an original version (e.g. like the one in the Internet archive)."

Kayamon's version appears to comply with all these requirements. If you think otherwise, could you explain which of her requirements are not met and how?

1. OK, it's free of charge.

2. Not OK. It doesn't mention Beam (neither did the original game) but it doesn't clarify anywhere that Beam wasn't involved either, as requested.

3. Kinda. It provides a link to WoS, but it doesn't give any indication that the original version can be found there. Thus if you are not already familiar with WoS and already knows the original version can be found there, it's very unlikely you will think about searching it there. When she asked to provide "a pointer to the original version", I assume she was thinking about those who DON'T already know how to get the original version.

[Rorthron]

1. OK, it's free of charge.

Agreed.

2. Not OK. It doesn't mention Beam (neither did the original game) but it doesn't clarify anywhere that Beam wasn't involved either, as requested.

There is no requirement to mention Beam, only one to say it is by another party ("it's clear that this is a later revision made by you guys"), which it does on the title page ("128K conversion by WorldofSpectrum.org"). (If it's by World of Spectrum, it's not by Beam.)

3. Kinda. It provides a link to WoS, but it doesn't give any indication that the original version can be found there. Thus if you are not already familiar with WoS and already knows the original version can be found there, it's very unlikely you will think about searching it there. When she asked to provide "a pointer to the original version", I assume she was thinking about those who DON'T already know how to get the original version.

Veronika Megler does not specify what sort of link is required or where it needs to be (just "there is some kind of pointer"). There is already a link in the SC entry, which would also satisfy the requirement.

All three requirements are met by including Kayamon's version in the archive.

[Einar Saukas]

You forgot to comment the "(not done by Beam)" part.