n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

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oO cozy Oo
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n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by oO cozy Oo »

Hi Everyone,
Got an n-go last week and have been playing around with some zx 128k games and came across Old Tower from retro souls not playing the game as it should, its slow and the graphics are not correct, also Multidude.
I`ve gone through all the setting and also formatted 2 cards and also used new next firmware and tbblue and re downloaded n-go softare ??
anyone else having these problems..Just loaded Buzzsaw+ and the rainbow wave on the menu screen is not right :(

thanks cozy

here`s the pics of how they should look and my n-go`s
ImageImage
ImageImage
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by MatGubbins »

Although I don't own an N-Go or Next, I'll ask the question of how are you connecting the N-Go to your screen - HDMI, VGA or some other way?
The N-Go and Next experts will then give you some feedback,

Also have a good read of every comment from this page
viewtopic.php?t=1131&start=370
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by oO cozy Oo »

MatGubbins wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:09 pm Although I don't own an N-Go or Next, I'll ask the question of how are you connecting the N-Go to your screen - HDMI, VGA or some other way?
The N-Go and Next experts will then give you some feedback,

Also have a good read of every comment from this page
viewtopic.php?t=1131&start=370
Thank you for posting me the link it`s because zx next and n-go cannot run multicolour games in HDMI only VGA or RGB :evil:
Seven.FFF
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Multicolour/Nirvana only works in VGA or RGB timings at 50Hz.

The reason is that HDMI or 60Hz both necessitate different video timings, and without a scanbuffer to hold and resample the picture, the timings of the Next have to be bent to have a different number of Ts per line, lines per frame, and frames per second in order to get close enough to the HDMI spec for most displays to display them. The first buggers up multicolour programs expectations that they’re running at exact 48K or 128K timings. The second leaves significantly less Ts per frame. My Nirvana games all crash at 60Hz because they overrun the frame, but Stormfish was ok last time I tested it.

The reason the Next doesn’t have a scanbuffer is simply that there isn’t room for one in the FPGA chip. It takes quite a bit of circuitry and BRAM to implement one.

This is actually a common problem other retro systems have too, as not all of them have a hardware scanbuffer chip or a large enough FPGA.

In the future it will be possible to address this. One possibility is to have a separate standard Spectrum core, without the Next-specific features. This has room for a scanbuffer. This core already exists as a proof of concept and works great, but the multicore infrastructure is still being worked on, so isn’t quite ready for general use yet.

Another possibility is to split the core into separate cores for VGA and RGB, which will also free up some room in both, perhaps enough for a rolling partial-frame scanbuffer. This one also needs some new infrastructure to make it truly seamless to switch between them.

You can also use RGB timings with a SCART cable and a RGB-SCART/HDMI convertor, if you’re unlucky enough to have an HDMI-only display.

For now multicolour games (including Denis’s Pentagon Nirvana) do work great in VGA and RGB modes.
Why have a Next or N-go if they cannot emulate a spectrum properly.......

So now i have to run in VGA now Im sad now....
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Swainy »

My Next plays those games fine via RGB on a CRT.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by stupidget »

Not sure if this is relevant but all those games use the Nirvana multicolour engine so I’m assuming that the n-go doesn’t support this capability.0
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Swainy »

stupidget wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:05 pm Not sure if this is relevant but all those games use the Nirvana multicolour engine so I’m assuming that the n-go doesn’t support this capability.0
No it’s more to do with the timings of the display. There’s currently no way around it if you hook a Next or N-Go up via HDMI.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Pegaz »

oO cozy Oo wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:07 pm Why have a Next or N-go if they cannot emulate a spectrum properly.......

So now i have to run in VGA now Im sad now....
Well, that's the million dollar question and you're not the first to ask yourself the same.
Maybe this topic will shed more light on all this, but be careful, one wrong step and you will be banished from the Next religion. ;)
viewtopic.php?t=2516
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous »

oO cozy Oo wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:07 pm So now i have to run in VGA now Im sad now....
Version 4 of the core will have correct hdmi video timing but that won't be coming for a while.

Spectrum clones don't attempt hdmi for a reason -- modern tv standards are incompatible with spectrum video signals. The Spectrum Next is a spectrum internally and it generates video with the same structure as the originals. It's not possible to display this on hdmi so instead, for hdmi, the structure of the video frame is changed to match hdmi's requirements. This changes the relationship between cpu and raster position which some games like Old Tower rely on to draw multicolour effects. So unfortunately at the moment, only VGA and RGB can display such things accurately because the spectrum video frame remains intact.

VGA and RGB work because they are analogue standards. Almost anything goes -- you can be well out of spec and they will still put something on the screen. Modern TVs supporting VGA or RGB can still present a challenge here, as although they will do their best to create a display like their older analogue counterparts, their digital nature means they sample the signal and process it for display on their panels. This can be done badly or well with corresponding results.

The typical solution for generating hdmi video from incompatible signals is to construct a framebuffer so that the old source writes pixels into a ram at one rate and the hdmi reads pixels from the same ram at a different rate. However this solution is not possible in the Spectrum Next because of its high resolution and the insufficient fpga size. Instead, there is another solution that will be pursued in version 4 of the core where the hdmi frame and the spectrum will be frame locked so that their frames are in sync and the amount of buffering between the two will be kept at a minimum level. This will not make much difference :- I can't recall the exact numbers but the frame rate of the 128K is slightly over 50 Hz and the frame rate of the 48K is slightly under. In fact, the 128K was "fixed" to be more compliant as the 48K was incompatible with some tvs (colour may not be there, worse artifacts, etc) and this led to some incompatibility between the 128K and 48K where games written to do multicolour effects on the 48K no longer worked on the 128K.

Anyway, the hdmi will mean the frame rate will be a constant 50 Hz with the 128K becoming very slightly slower and the 48K very slightly faster to suit. Most people don't even know that the 128K was faster. The difference will be more noticeable for the Pentagon as its frame rate is around 48.x Hz due to hardware bugs that are now an essential part of what makes a Pentagon a Pentagon. It was incompatible with many displays in its day. In comparison, the analogue nature of VGA and RGB means it is possible to support the frame rates as they were in the originals.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Gooeyblob »

50.08 Hz for the 48K display, 50.02 Hz for the 128K and this can vary as the Spectrum warms up :)
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Chris23235 »

oO cozy Oo wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:40 pm Hi Everyone,
Got an n-go last week and have been playing around with some zx 128k games and came across Old Tower from retro souls not playing the game as it should, its slow and the graphics are not correct, also Multidude.
I`ve gone through all the setting and also formatted 2 cards and also used new next firmware and tbblue and re downloaded n-go softare ??
anyone else having these problems..Just loaded Buzzsaw+ and the rainbow wave on the menu screen is not right :(

thanks cozy
You can use a VGA2HDMI adapter, according to AA not every adapter will work, but as they are cheap they are always worth a try. I bought one a while ago after I noticed the missing multicolor effect in the Uridium title screen and it worked perfect. Cycle exact picture on my HDMI display by using the VGA port and the adapter. There is no noticable lag for me, even games that require fast reactions work fine.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by -48K- »

@Chris23235 May I ask whcih brand/model of HDMI>VGA converter you are using?
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Chris23235 »

-48K- wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:15 am @Chris23235 May I ask whcih brand/model of HDMI>VGA converter you are using?
Hi, I use the OcioDual VGA2HDMI converter.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Robhawk »

Chris23235 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:54 pm Hi, I use the OcioDual VGA2HDMI converter.
Just for awareness I ordered one of these around a month ago from Amazon and it did not work at all - no signal of any sort at the TV. They are not a fortune but you may need to try a couple.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Seven.FFF »

-48K- wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:15 am May I ask whcih brand/model of HDMI>VGA converter you are using?
I use one of these with my Next when I need to run on an HDMI-only TV, as well as with my Spectrum +3 and BBC Model B:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165518264868

It works with a Next RGB SCART cable like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254514471844

or this:

https://coolnovelties.co.uk/coolnovelti ... 07088.html

and needs the Next to be put in Scandoubler off mode - hold R on boot to enter RGB mode in testcard video selector program, or edit c:/machines/next/config.ini so that:

Code: Select all

scandoubler=0
50_60Hz=0
timing=0
This gives you accurate 50Hz Spectrum timings over RGB.

Somebody reported that a MISTer RGB-SCART cable also works, as the wiring is the same.

I had a couple of VGA to HDMI convertors but they had really bad picture quality (strong jailbars, black was chocolate brown), so I have stuck with this solution. Be aware that cheaper SCART to HDMI convertors are available, and tend to show up first in search results, but they only convert composite SCART to HDMI, not RGB SCART to HDMI. The Next does not have composite output.

Of course if your TV already supports RGB over SCART, you can use one of the two above cables directly, along with the config setting changes.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Chris23235 »

Robhawk wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:40 pm Just for awareness I ordered one of these around a month ago from Amazon and it did not work at all - no signal of any sort at the TV. They are not a fortune but you may need to try a couple.
Did you try a different USB power cable?
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Seven.FFF »

Chris23235 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:56 pm Did you try a different USB power cable?
The OcioDual appears to be 60Hz only, so the TV would have to understand HDMI60 at the resolution it outputs. The HDMI spec doesn't require TVs to support 50 and 60 in every single resolution the spec covers - only one 50Hz and one 60Hz each. We've encountered many TVs that don't do what are needed for various convertors or the native HDMI output.

Image

A related question is whether the convertor will accept VGA50 and convert it to HDMI60, or whether it needs the input to be VGA60 too. In that case you'd need to set the Next to output 60Hz in order to get a picture. Of course that effectively puts the Next in US Timex Sinclair timings, which are quite different from UK 50Hz Spectrum timings. Which would be no good when the end goal is accurate timings.

Even if it does accept VGA50 input, @Chris23235 would need to put the next into VGA50 timing 0 to use it. Just plugging the converter in when the Next is set to output HDMI wouldn’t work.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Chris23235 »

Seven.FFF wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:39 pm The OcioDual appears to be 60Hz only, so the TV would have to understand HDMI60 at the resolution it outputs. The HDMI spec doesn't require TVs to support 50 and 60 in every single resolution the spec covers - only one 50Hz and one 60Hz each. We've encountered many TVs that don't do what are needed for various convertors or the native HDMI output.

Image

A related question is whether the convertor will accept VGA50 and convert it to HDMI60, or whether it needs the input to be VGA60 too. In that case you'd need to set the Next to output 60Hz in order to get a picture. Of course that effectively puts the Next in US Timex Sinclair timings, which are quite different from UK 50Hz Spectrum timings. Which would be no good when the end goal is accurate timings.

Even if it does accept VGA50 input, @Chris23235 would need to put the next into VGA50 timing 0 to use it. Just plugging the converter in when the Next is set to output HDMI wouldn’t work.
I use the converter with VGA50 and the HDMI output is 50Hz. Used it on my Samsung PAL HD LCD and now on a PC Monitor. In both cases the input refresh rate coming from the n-go matched the output refresh rate coming from the adapter.
The tech sheet says max resolution 1920*1080@60Hz, I read this as not above full hd and not above 60Hz.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Robhawk »

Chris23235 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:56 pm Did you try a different USB power cable?
I did try with a PI PSU but still no avail.

Perhaps it’s an issue and I need to set my N-GO to the VGA50 timing 0 setting? I’m pretty sure I did not do this.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Chris23235 »

Robhawk wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:54 pm I did try with a PI PSU but still no avail.

Perhaps it’s an issue and I need to set my N-GO to the VGA50 timing 0 setting? I’m pretty sure I did not do this.
I just booted my n-go to recheck it. I am in VGA50 timing 0 and the output of the HDMI adapter is 1280*600 49Hz according to the monitor.
On my monitor Modes 0-5 sync in 50Hz and 60Hz with the adapter.
Make sure to press "V" on the keyboard while powering the n-go. If your monitor doesn't sync press "n" to go to the next mode. The firmware cycles through all modes alternating 50Hz/60Hz.

EDIT: Cycled through the modes and remembered why I originally chose VGA mode 1. With this mode the adapter outputs 1280*600@50Hz.
The 60Hz modes have an output resolution of 640*480 with the adapter.
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by Robhawk »

Thanks for the update. I’ll check again next weekend when I’m back with the machine.

Help greatly appreciated.

Rob
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by -48K- »

Thanks for all the info! I can see that it is a bit of a headache to support all the many standards that are available!

It's a long time since I used any real hardware, so signal compatibility issues like this fill me with a little bit of fear, when I am so used to plug and play between modern computers and monitors. Sep 2023 may see a spate of similar posts lol!
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Re: n-go not running "Old Tower" game as it should

Post by iss05e »

Hello,

I'm using my N-go with a Sony SDM-X93 via VGA and those games work fine. These monitors are great because they have built-in speakers and 2xVGA inputs and 1xDVI all with their own 3.5mm audio inputs, selectable through the buttons on the front.

I therefore have one monitor for my N-go and Raspberry Pi running Retropie.

Paul
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