PeteProdge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:10 am Let's be honest, the notoriously game-o-phobic Sir Clive Sinclair wasn't much of a businessman and as much as toes curl at what Alan Sugar is these days, it's Amstrad that breathed new life into the Speccy. People want games, that's that. Sir Clive got the pricing right but the marketing very wrong. The QL was a nice idea on paper - an affordable serious computer with significantly better tech specs than a Spectrum. It's just that the QL was fudged.
Rorthron wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:16 am Incidentally, does anyone have any evidence for the widely-held view that Clive Sinclair disapproved of the Spectrum being used for games? The fictional Sir Clive in Micro Men is portrayed that way, but I am unaware of the real Sir Clive ever saying anything like that.
Journeyman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:37 am I think the best evidence is all of Sinclair's publicity and catalogues up to about early 1985 or so. All of them pitch the Spectrum as a general purpose computer with a lot of scientific and educational uses. I'd also say the QL is a big indication -.it's widely considered true that Sinclair was angry the Spectrum wasn't taken more seriously. The only post-takeover machine he ever released was the Z88 as well - try gaming on that!
StooB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:23 am In October 1984, Sinclair paid £100,000 for Bandersnatch to be made for the QL with an option on Psyclape. "Ideal for the type of QL user we envisage" said Alison Maguire, Sinclair Software Manager. Doesn't sound very "game-o-phobic".
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/page.ph ... 650&page=5
PaddyC13 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:42 am Having said that, I do wonder why Amstrad did not have a go with an updated QL. Similar approach to the +3. Add a decent keyboard, tidy up the hardware and firmware, slap on a 3” disk, provide one of their colour TV monitors, expand the RAM to 512K and boom you have a QL+. They could have even packaged the QL as per the PCW especially as it came with the Psion business packages. That could have been an interesting machine…
Kind regards
Paddy
Journeyman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:47 am It would have been interesting, but they already had the PCW range servicing the budget home office market, and the decision to pull the +3 early shows they were more loyal to their own in-house products than stuff they'd bought elsewhere. The +3 was seen as a threat to CPC sales and was pulled. There's not much point in competing with yourself unless you can absolutely guarantee growing the market. Look at all of British Leyland's sub-brands selling multiple cars in the same market segment - it was a nightmare, and they only recovered from near-oblivion when they dumped a lot of the old brands and sold only one model in each size/segment.
1024MAK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:39 pm Ahh, market research. Yes, a company should carefully consider the market they are developing a product for. But, sometimes, in a market that does not exist (maybe in its current form) is hard to judge. And paying for market research may be a bit of a money pit if you are not careful.
However, sometimes there may be a way around this.
Remember, Sinclair launched the humble ZX Spectrum in two versions, a 16K model that Sinclair thought would be the bigger seller and the more expensive 48K version. And which turned out to be the most popular?
And even before that, the ZX81 was available either in kit form, or fully built form.
Hence, when it came to his next project, the QL, I would have thought that having more than one model may have been an idea to spread the risk. The model as launched would have been the base model. And a more expensive version, say, with D connectors for the RS232 and Joystick ports, and a built in 3.5” floppy drive, would have been the higher spec model.
With things like the C5, yes, it definitely should have been launched on a nice warm sunny day. Possibly at a location where people could try it out in a public area that had a nice wide path or similar. Like a promenade (seaside) or park. Offer people free rides and then afterwards an interview with them on film/video.
Then, use a campaign for suitable facilities (cycle lanes) to boost both Sinclair’s profile and in turn use this to help market the C5.
But, as always, hindsight is a wonderful thing (pssss pass me that time machine!).
Mark
Wall_Axe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:40 pm As far as amstrads activities with the spectrum.
If they had announced the release of the QL and advertised it's serious uses alongside the games, I probably would have bought it.
Instead of the aforementioned megadrive.
I didn't know the QL existed until two years ago. So Sinclairs advertising for such an interesting computer was woeful.
I even remember the advert where sir Clive jumped over the other computers. But that didn't tell anyone what the computer did , and didn't even show the computer on the screen for barely more than a second.
I can see the logic of using microdrives to seriously undercut the competition, it's just a shame they had the faults.
I wonder how much a ql would have cost with the 3.5" drive?
The QL could actually display sprites that had more than one colour per 8x8 square which would have been really welcome then.
If they advertised the QL as being able to make spectrum games and showed someone using it as a dev kit that would have sold loads. If you put that alongside the word processing for homework. It would've been quite an enticing package.
The C5 did have use in some edge cases like disabled people living close to heavily paved areas. People who live closeish to the shops but not close enough.
But they got the &-+( taken out of them so much.
catmeows wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:10 pm IMHO, there was no place for QL in Amstrad product line, they had home computer CPC and small business computer PCW already.
And QL really fails to tell what it is.
It could be beefed home computer, with 68008, 128K RAM it would be nice machine, if only it had better keyboard, floppy and less ambitious video. With 8-bit data bus, they could have horizontal resolution 640 pixels monochrome, 320 with 4 colors or 160 with 16 colors. They choosed video modes that needed almost double memory bandwitdth and they needed to slow down 68008 that was already choked by narrow bus. They could even read ram during blanking to provide sampled sound and they could read video line start to make scrolling easier. With a 64 color pallete it would be really nice machine. They could do what amstrad did and add a tv disguised as monitor. And if they switch to 256K model in 1985 or 1986, QL could survive till PC ragnarok by the end of 90s,
Or they could aim for bussines machine and it that case 128K was bare minimum, 256K or 512K would be much better. And it that case they probably should switch to 16bit data bus and offer better video and 68000. By 1984, bussiness already proved that it is willing to pay $1000+ for Apple or IBM PC.
Jbizzel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:54 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CST_Thor
The QL lived on after the Amstrad takeover.
One of the guys who reverse engineered the Z88 OZ operating system told me a little about it once. Sounds far out.
Journeyman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 am It's often been said that Sinclair's genius was making things cheap, and all the clever stuff in his products was directed towards that end - and it's what often makes them quite annoying. Much as I love the Spectrum, there's a lot you can't do with it, and there's a lot you can do more easily on machines with fewer compromises. The BBC Micro is a classic example. It cost an arm and a leg but it was incredibly well-specced, if a bit short on RAM.
Of course, my perennially skint parents could never afford a Beeb.
The home computer market could tolerate the compromises that made Sinclair products cheap, though. Owning a computer with limitations and shortcomings was better than not owning a computer at all, and the Spectrum software library was huge, so there was always plenty of choice on what you could do with it.
The QL was also built down to a price, though, and that was a fatal error for a high-end machine aimed at businesses and serious home users. Quite apart from the botched and premature launch, the machine had so many really serious flaws and was completely non-standard. I often wonder how it would have turned out if more sensible decisions had been made. Probably infinitely more boring and a lot more expensive, but it might have been a success.
Wall_Axe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:25 am If it was a cheaper ST , and advertised as such it might have found a gap In the market.
Businesses seemed to go with IBM or something very reliable .
In a way the Amiga was a dream computer as it had gaming and serious applications but it just fell short in both areas to be a massive success.
I owned two Amigas but only saw them as a way to play RPGs that didn't appear on consoles
I didn't do any coding,or college work on my Amigas cos I didn't know they were any good for that.
Journeyman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:34 am I can't help thinking that if the QL had included a Spectrum compatibility mode it would have flown off the shelves, and possibly created more demand for Spectrum software on Microdrive cartridges.
1024MAK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:39 am Yes, being “affordable” was most definitely a high priority aim as far as Sinclair was concerned.
The ZX Spectrum is a general purpose microcomputer. Just like many of its competitors. The limitations are in keeping with its intended market - home users. Hence, cheap keyboard, tape storage, a reasonable display and simple sound.
It’s possible to connect a far better keyboard, a different BASIC/OS ROM, floppy disk drive interface, or a better display system (all due to the full Z80 bus plus the /ROMCS line being available on the edge-connector/expansion port).
In practice, everything I mentioned above became available apart from the better display system.
I agree with most of the above. However, apart from CP/M, Shugart floppy disk drive interface, Centronics parallel printer ports and similar, there were little in the way of industry standards at the time that the QL was being developed. I don’t think the concept of a business computer from Sinclair was flawed.
The bundled software with the QL was certainly useable. The biggest problems were the microdrives. Not just the perception that they were unreliable (not all were), but more that they were an absolute pain for commercial software distribution.
Mark
1024MAK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:01 am If, that’s a very big IF.
The hardware was VERY different, so only software emulation would have been possible (which would be rather slow). Unless more hardware was added or the QL substantially redesigned (see the Commodore 128 as a comparison). Keep in mind that most ‘new’ computers at the time were not, or ever intended to be software compatible with their predecessors.
The QL was also not intended (going on the marketing) as a games machine (although for some reason it did include a ROM cartridge slot and two joystick ports… answers on a post card please…!).
It is rather bizarre that a company that originally was supposed to be aiming at selling business computers, became mostly known for games computers (Commodore Business Machines), so much so, that even the very capable Amiga was also mainly used for games (it did get used for the Babylon 5 TV programme CGI).
So, Sinclair with the QL was really going well against the grain, it had to be attractive to the one man band / small business owner. It wasn’t…
I don’t think, even if it had been marketed as a games machine, it would have done any better. Again, because, as I’ve said, of the problems of duplication of microdrive cartridges. And with no tape interface, and no Sinclair standard for floppy disks, how else are you going to duplicate and sell your games in large quantities?
Mark
Well, microdrives were Clives baby…. There was no way he was going to abandon them and not use them. Of course, a business needs something reliable, hence even though floppy disk drives were expensive, they were generally considered to be the most reliable mass media at the time for personal computers.Jbizzel wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:52 pm @1024MAK very interesting, thank you.
But why bother to add microdrives at all? They could have allowed for an expansion and given people a choice of disk Vs microdrive.
I think the point you make about lack of standards is very valid. It's easy to look back with hindsight.
I often think Japan was mad to attack USA when they did. But actually they were very closely matched and probably only lost due to poor discipline with their encryption. However hindsight makes there actions seem ridiculous. Therefore hindsight is not our friend in this analysis. (Minor deviation from the topic )
As someone on this thread already pointed out, the PC standard didn't come to dominate until late 90s, at the launch of the QL the cement was still wet.
I know very little about the QL, and suspect the technology is under rated, and lacked a clear market. For example, I often hear criticism of its keyboard, but I tried one a few years ago and I was surprised how good it was. It looks like a 48k+ keyboard, but the single layer membrane makes a TONNE of difference.
I believe the QL had a multi tasking OS, I'd love to know more about that. Is it similar to the Z88, in that you can suspend one program and launch another, switching seamlessly between the two? But then that is way off topic for this thread!!
Ps spectrum compatibility would not have sold it to me. People were being strongly driven by graphic enhancements, and games that went beyond the 8bit era.
I bought an Atari ST - it wasn't so I could play manic miner with better graphics.
PPS was the QL ever in the Argos catalogue??
Not too many people do know much detail about the QL. The actual concept was fine. And some of the ideas were in fact good. The hardware is however, a mess. They went through various issue boards before ending up with issue 5 being reliable enough. But issue 6 boards are also fairly common.
The size of the combined OS and BASIC exceeded the allocated 32K bytes of ROM, hence the dongle that went in the ROM cartridge slot. The extra ROM being 16K bytes in size. So the total size of the OS and BASIC is 48K bytes.
It was in fact possible to have not needed the dongle if they had fitted a modification on the main board. Which is what eventually happened in later issue boards. Before incorporating the amended design properly in later still issue boards. This is also the reason that the ROM cartridge slot is more or less useless. Half of it’s capacity has been used for the OS and BASIC ROM, leaving just 16K bytes for any ROM cartridge to use (not that a 32K byte ROM would have been that useful for applications or games, but definitely better than only 16K, and keep in mind this is for a 16/32 bit processor).
The SuperBASIC is much better than the ZX Spectrum BASIC. The OS is a proper OS. It’s called QDOS, and yes, it’s multitasking. But this is not apparent when using SuperBASIC as normal. To see the multitasking, you have to know what you are doing. And not many programmers made use of it.
Yes, the OS development and bug fixing continued long after the first machines were sent out to customers, which did not help with the reputation.
So, plus points:
- eventually a good OS that could multitask had had basic windows on screen
- a good and improved BASIC
- the best Sinclair keyboard (although I still don’t like it much, and it’s still not good enough for many) with space bar
- the expansion port used a proper connector (no edge-connector wobble) and ‘standard’ size cards could be wholly contained within the computer
- twin joystick and twin serial ports as standard
- had a microcontroller to deal with the keyboard, reducing main processor workload
- the video system was pixel based, so no attribute clash. 80 column text was both possible and nice and clear
- RGB port so good quality monitors could be used
- uses a 68008 processor, hence has a much better instruction set than the Z80
- using modern languages which are compiled is much easier with a 68XXX processor
- has built-in mass storage system (microdrives)
- has built-in network ports
- touch typists don’t like the keyboard, it really needed a better keyboard
- the joystick and serial ports use non-standard BT type connectors which were and still are, hard to get
- its not practical to try to use both serial ports at the same time due to design limitations
- most printers at the time use a Centronics parallel printer port, which the QL did not have
- to use 80 column mode, a special monitor was needed, otherwise due to overscan, the left hand side and right hand side of the displayed image were off screen (TV mode just does not print to these areas of the screen)
- having and using microdrives, this was never going to sell it to businesses and professionals
- software companies hatred microdrives because only Sinclair could duplicate them, so software distribution was difficult and expensive
- the style was not really going to look at home in an office
- the machine being released long before it was ready, and hence it got a bad reputation. Same for the microdrives.
- no standard or provision for a Sinclair floppy disk drive
- because they used a 68008 with a 8 bit data-bus, the memory throughput to the processor was not as quick as a 68000. Don’t get me wrong, its a lot quicker than a ZX Spectrum, but it could have been better…
- only 128K of RAM built-in, of which 32K bytes is used for the screen display
- the microcontroller produces the sound, as the QL does not use a purpose designed sound chip, hence only one sound ‘channel’
- totally incompatible with the other Sinclair computers, including the microdrive format/files
I don’t know for certain, but I don’t think the QL was in the Argos catalogue.
Mark