Were some games meant to be cheated on?

[TMD2003]

Controversial Jacques is going to stick his neck on the line here and say YES. And I don't mean games that were slightly broken (say, JSW with the Attic Bug) or deliberately unfinishable because there was a level or part of a map missing.

I was just watching a bit of the RZX of Scumball, which had been recorded with an infinite energy poke switched on. It's not the only entry on the archive to have needed a poke to be able to record a complete playthrough. It's one of those games where everything continuously spawns and will drain your energy with the slightest sniff of contact, there are further energy drains in the scenery, and the map is huge. With the likes of Atic Atac and Starquake, at least a player with a photographic memory for the layout of the map and a total understanding of where to go at all times has a hope of completing those games, and even then it requires charging around at full belt and never, ever, ever slowing down.

Scumball, though - I can only assume that "xmikex" couldn't see a way to complete the game without the infinite lives poke. Atic Atac was done in six minutes, and Starquake took 30 minutes. Scumball took "only" 28 minutes - but that was done by passing through every single energy drain without stopping to avoid it for the entire game, and barely ever firing at anything unless it was absolutely necessary.

Starquake is probably a better comparison for this purpose than Atic Atac. It was a full-price game, so is that an indication that it was fully play-tested - even if it was by the authors who knew it inside out by the time it launched - to confirm that it was possible? Scumball, on the other hand, was a Mastertronic release - so could it be that it was designed, minimally playtested to make sure that it worked but not even slightly confirmed that it was possible to finish the game with the amount of lives and energy allocated, even if the player was a Game Lord™?

In the case of other games that have been RZXed without using infinite lives/energy pokes but with heavy use of Rollback, that does imply it's possible but Game Lord™ status would be required for most of them. Jet Set Willy II, to give a well-known example: especially with what's going on in space, I refuse to believe that anyone has ever completed it without Rollback, a Multiface, or some kind of save-snapshot device. Anyone who feels the need to prove me wrong, record an RZX on Fuse in Tournament Mode. Go on, I dare you.

[worcestersource]

Never played Scumball but I always felt Panzadrome needed a poke so you could drive over craters. Once there was one there, you were stuck (unless there was something about the game I didn’t know).

I read in an old Retro Gamer, I forget which game in particular, where the author said they became so good at their game during development that they lost sight that actual players would not be. Hence a ridiculous difficulty rating. Maybe that was the case here?

[animaal]

I'd be curious to know if anybody here manages to get beyond the first few levels of Batty without some kind of cheat. After 30-something years I played it with pokes recently; very disappointed to find that there's no real end to the game. Life seems to have lost some of its meaning now.

[AndyC]

It was a full-price game, so is that an indication that it was fully play-tested - even if it was by the authors who knew it inside out by the time it launched - to confirm that it was possible?

In the eighties? Honestly, you'd be lucky if anyone had actually bothered to make sure it was possible even with pokes, let alone without.

[equinox]

I think this is a v important comment.
Don't read it as "should we fail?" -- but rather "should we cheat?" --
It's hard to say because cheating (as a habit) wasn't a thing in the early 80s, but was definitely a thing by the early 90s, when we either told secret "hacks" on TV on *Gamesmaster*, or when we knew about Game Genie.
of course it was possible in the 80s (Speccy, Amstrad CPC, etc.) to have something that could "poke at runtime" (you know what you were doing) -- okay. You could break a game, you could add infinite lives.
To return to OP: "Were some games meant to be cheated on?" -- You know, I personally love to cheat on a modern game (I played "Super Mario Odyssey" in the ASSIST MODE, because I am an old tired man and I just want to enjoy the game and see it all, without any bullsh*t -- I certainly don't want to spend five minutes skidding over ice and then fall down a hole and repeat it.

In the 80s? I ****ing doubt it (sadly) -- they just did the work they were paid for. It was hard to create a huge complex game, and "you lost a life" was easier -- anyway-- just a thought.

[equinox]

In the eighties? Honestly, you'd be lucky if anyone had actually bothered to make sure it was possible even with pokes, let alone without.

Every time I won "werewolves of london" i thought "Andy C would never believe this, even when he had a cool gaming Web site that he inexplicably deleted"
FINE you're still wrong.
on we go. Yesterday I was touching a new Windows Server and deciding whether SQL Server should-- never mind -- trust him, not me.

[equinox]

I'd be curious to know if anybody here manages to get beyond the first few levels of Batty without some kind of cheat. After 30-something years I played it with pokes recently; very disappointed to find that there's no real end to the game. Life seems to have lost some of its meaning now.

Yes mate, What did you expect it to do?

When I married the goth girl Heather I thought "whew, I'm married now, everything will be fine". Now we are broken up, what do I expect? Probably a high-score table.

That aside: why don't you play "Krypton Egg" (Arkanoid clone) on the Atari, it's ****ing excellent.

[equinox]

P.S. Anyone who's bored enough, and enjoys UK alternative comedy, might like to look up Lee and Herring's scene where they take a genuine Gamesmaster "Golden Joystick" and just destroy it and stamp on it. I understand.
You may or may not laugh. I did. I can tell further stories about this but nobody wants to hear.

[stupidget]

I used to love watching this show on a Sunday morning after the mandatory drinking session and nightclub shenanigans the evening before. Curious Orange, Histor's Eye and Nostradamus we particular favourites of mine.

Back on topic, I can't see how anyone at all could complete Olli & Lissa:Ghost of Shilmore Castle without cheating.

[Vampyre]

In the eighties? Honestly, you'd be lucky if anyone had actually bothered to make sure it was possible even with pokes, let alone without.

Even someone as great as Joffa succumbed to not fully testing! For years and years I'd tried to break the world record in Hypersports' swimming event and never managed it. When Joffa appeared on WoSF I managed to ask him about it. He admitted that he just threw some times into it and never bothered testing if they could be beaten. I think someone added (memories a bit hazy - it was years ago) it was possible in an emulator if you slowed it down a bit.

[Dr beep]

yes,
Backgammon by the computer ai. it gave better dice on higher levels, not a randomized value.

[Joefish]

I read in an old Retro Gamer, I forget which game in particular, where the author said they became so good at their game during development that they lost sight that actual players would not be. Hence a ridiculous difficulty rating. Maybe that was the case here?

Good job I'm fairly crap at playing the games I write then, making that all the less likely!

[Morkin]

In a lot of cases I suspect it was a case of (a) the programmer being the only person to test their own game (while writing it) not realising how difficult it would be to the average player, and (b) reviewers tending not to criticise games for being too difficult.

Having said that, I have two words - Mutan Zone... I'm not sure how any sane programmer could expect any gamer to get anywhere in that thing.

Back on topic, I can't see how anyone at all could complete Olli & Lissa:Ghost of Shilmore Castle without cheating.

I suspect it's doable - it's a small game, only 8 screens.

I think I managed to get to screen 5 without cheating, but it's mainly the depleting timer/energy that causes issues. You have to be quite quick and accurate with your jumps.

[HEXdidnt]

There are certainly loads where the mechanics of the game are such that it's bordering on impossible. For very similar reasons, I'd suggest Trantor: The Last Stormtrooper and Defenders of the Earth.

Endless streams of enemies coming in at random from both sides of the screen, the slightest contact drains your health dramatically, and there's literally no way to avoid some collisions.

Don't even get me started on games for the SAM Coupé.

[Joefish]

Pretty sure adventure games are the worst culprits here, particularly ones that don't recognise synonyms for the specific actions needed to solve a puzzle, or nitpick about the specific action (e.g. LIFT vs PUSH the lid of a sarcophagus). Never mind nonsensical associations between objects and their uses or effects.

[Van_Dammesque]

Wasn't there a game where later levels were deliberately hard, that is impossible, due to the coder not having time to complete the game?
Very helpful I know but can't quite remember and hope it might jog someone's memory. I'm sure it was Laird's Lair or OSG youtube channel.

[StooB]

Wasn't there a game where later levels were deliberately hard, that is impossible, due to the coder not having time to complete the game?
Very helpful I know but can't quite remember and hope it might jog someone's memory. I'm sure it was Laird's Lair or OSG youtube channel.

Great Gurianos? The final boss is undefeatable because there was no memory left for an ending.

[SteveSmith]

Having said that, I have two words - Mutan Zone... I'm not sure how any sane programmer could expect any gamer to get anywhere in that thing.

It's a Spanish game. What were you expecting?

[Joefish]

It's a Spanish game. What were you expecting?

Bewbs?

[Van_Dammesque]

Great Gurianos? The final boss is undefeatable because there was no memory left for an ending.

That could be it!

[dfzx]

Wasn't there a game where later levels were deliberately hard, that is impossible, due to the coder not having time to complete the game?

Invasion of the Body Snatchas! just peters out. BITD I found an invincibility poke and was rather disappointed that there wasn't an ending. It just presents more levels with no baddies IIRC.

[blucey]

Chronos.

Without the mega laser it's a boring, lengthy, difficult game. With it it's the same but with a mega laser and a bit easier.

Feels like the mega laser should have been a temporary power up but that'd be far too interesting a mechanic for Chronos.

[HEXdidnt]

Pretty sure adventure games are the worst culprits here, particularly ones that don't recognise synonyms for the specific actions needed to solve a puzzle, or nitpick about the specific action (e.g. LIFT vs PUSH the lid of a sarcophagus). Never mind nonsensical associations between objects and their uses or effects.

This is an interesting one - I recently finished reading "The Spectrum of Adventure" by Thomas A. Christie, and there are many, many instances of the parser being called out as the main problem, for exactly this reason. Memory restrictions are cited in some cases, but others are clearly author oversight, and there's at least one instance of a game requiring a very specific - and entirely unintuitive - command to accomplish a goal.

[Ast A. Moore]

I'd be curious to know if anybody here manages to get beyond the first few levels of Batty without some kind of cheat.

Define “few.” I never expected it to have a proper “ending” back in the day, but getting through the first three or four levels wasn’t too difficult. You needed a fair bit of luck, though. A life or jetpack bonus was always welcome, of course.

I just played it for the fun of it. Great graphics and sound.

[mjwilson]

With the likes of Atic Atac and Starquake, at least a player with a photographic memory for the layout of the map and a total understanding of where to go at all times has a hope of completing those games, and even then it requires charging around at full belt and never, ever, ever slowing down...

Starquake is probably a better comparison for this purpose than Atic Atac. It was a full-price game, so is that an indication that it was fully play-tested - even if it was by the authors who knew it inside out by the time it launched - to confirm that it was possible? Scumball, on the other hand, was a Mastertronic release - so could it be that it was designed, minimally playtested to make sure that it worked but not even slightly confirmed that it was possible to finish the game with the amount of lives and energy allocated, even if the player was a Game Lord™?

Starquake isn't particularly difficult, and I speak as an average (at best) gameplayer who has completed it many times. Admittedly there is a bit of a random factor in terms of what's in the core and where those pieces are, so you can certainly get lucky and find a bunch of extra lives and a few core parts in the first place you look, but it's not a game that needs technical skills.