Why didn't the Spectrum have many Roguelikes?

[SteveSmith]

Unlike FPS's, I think the Spectrum was ideally suited to Roguelike games; no realtime gameplay, procedural generation (to save memory) and simple graphics. UDG's would have been ideal. Obviously there was one Rogue game, but why didn't the Spectrum get swamped with them? They could probably have been written in Basic and been none-the-worse for it! I wish I'd thought of it myself back in the day.

[firelord]

Unlike FPS's, I think the Spectrum was ideally suited to Roguelike games; no realtime gameplay, procedural generation (to save memory) and simple graphics. UDG's would have been ideal. Obviously there was one Rogue game, but why didn't the Spectrum get swamped with them? They could probably have been written in Basic and been none-the-worse for it! I wish I'd thought of it myself back in the day.

I think rogue games became popular after the main spectrum era.

[ParadigmShifter]

Mystic Tower came with Currah Microspeech, pretty sure that was random layout

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... stic_Tower

Interesting, it says it is part of an unidentified collection, even though it is linked to from the Currah Microspeech page

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/8 ... icroSpeech

There was also a budget game I had that was a rouguelike, can't find what it was though, and I'm not sure if the map was randomly generated either. I'll try and find it later on I think.

The Oracle's Cave was random layout I think?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... acles_Cave

I'd also count Halls of the Things but it is an action roguelike really. Has the right amount of controls for a roguelike anyway lol

Also Tomb of Dracula but that was rubbish.

[SteveSmith]

Mystic Tower came with Currah Microspeech, pretty sure that was random layout

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... stic_Tower

Interesting, it says it is part of an unidentified collection, even though it is linked to from the Currah Microspeech page

I'm just playing this now. Obviously it's slow, but not a bad little game for the day. It doesn't seem to have been noticed much.

This is the list of Roguelikes according to ZXDB: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/list?group_id=1043

[ParadigmShifter]

I was thinking of this for the budget game

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/3 ... r_of_Magic

but it seems the map was not random

https://maps.speccy.cz/map.php?id=MasterofMagic

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm just playing this now. Obviously it's slow, but not a bad little game for the day. It doesn't seem to have been noticed much.

This is the list of Roguelikes according to ZXDB: https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/list?group_id=1043

Seems to just hang on "Loading please wait"? Unless it expects a microspeech unit?

EDIT: Looks like it only works in 48K mode.

Played a bit of the first level... dunno if I died (I think I did) or levelled up (lost all my gold but all my stats went up to 32 instead of 20, and I kept my armour)... message wasn't on screen for long enough!

[worcestersource]

I started to write one and got reasonably far with it. Unfortunately, life took over and I stopped. If someone were keen to draw some graphics I might finish it off.

viewtopic.php?t=6541

It had maps that were procedurally generated and got bigger with each new level.

[toot_toot]

I think it’s maybe down to the term “roguelike” being, what feels like, a fairly modern term. There were a few games that were like the original Rogue on the spectrum, but they maybe didn’t have the random dungeon thing.

I suppose the closest genres on the database are “Adventure Game: Dungeon Crawl” https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/list?genre_id=1 and some in the RPG genre https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/list?genre_id=4

Of course, the original Rogue was converted to the Spectrum! https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/4 ... trum/Rogue



It had a pretty horrible WIMP type interface as that was the rage at the time (and used in the 16 bit versions released by Mastertronic).

But why weren’t there more games like Rogue for the Spectrum? There was just a shortage of general “Dungeons and Dragons” type role playing games on the Spectrum. Maybe down to the storage medium of tape. Maybe down to the audience not being big enough (If you wanted to play RPGs, to be honest you’d have bought a C64 with a disk drive).

A couple decent games are the aforementioned Oracle’s Cave




Runes of Zendos (by the same author as Oracle’s Cave)





Swords and Sorcery (although I don’t think it has randomly generated levels)



There’s also Master of Magic, although I can’t remember if it’s randomly generated dungeons and the playing area is absolutely tiny



And there is also Maziacs, although it’s more action than RPG, but it does have a randomly generated maze.



I think Maziacs is a good example of the type of game Spectrum users wanted and maybe why there weren’t more games like Rogue. Maziacs had some RPG elements with a randomly generated level, but it was presented in a much more arcade and action orientated way.Another game would be Hall of the Things. It looks like a Rogue game, but its definitely more action based.

[Einar Saukas]

I started to write one and got reasonably far with it. Unfortunately, life took over and I stopped.

It looks fantastic!

I hope this work won't get wasted. If you are struggling to finish it, I suggest you simply release whatever you have as "demo". Right now, even with only keys and trapdoors but no monsters, it works as a playable maze game. When you add a monster later, release another demo. And so on...

Putting it out and getting feedback repeatedly should give you the motivation to keep gradually improving it.

If someone were keen to draw some graphics I might finish it off.

You can post a request for help with graphics in the original thread, or start a new one. Although I think your graphics are fine!

[worcestersource]

Thanks Einar. That’s all good sense to me!

The graphics I’ve drawn are fine and work but there are a lot to draw still. I think I enjoy the coding more.

I’ll pop a message in the thread and see if anyone wishes to collaborate.

[Ralf]

Like others, I also believed that roguelikes became somehow popular only in the 90s when Spectrum was already commercially dead.

And I'm sure I learnt this term only in the 90s, it was completely foerign to me in the 80s.

I remember I had a mate who loved them. I could never understand him, why anybody would play a game in a text mode, made of symbols like !@#$%<>()
when you had stuff like Baldur's Gate available

[ParadigmShifter]

Nethack is a fantastic game though. (It's extremely difficult however). Plenty of amusement to be had in being killed by a kitten, killed kicking a wall, falling down the stairs and landing on a cockatrice corpse (turning you to stone), dying by falling off your horse when attempting to mount it, being zapped by a gnome with a wand of death, etc.

[Joefish]

I'm not sure I want to play something that's truly random, as then there's no guarantee that it's beatable. I mean, sorting falling Tetris blocks is one thing, but I want an adventure game with a few puzzles or side-quests. I guess you could take something like a Zelda dungeon and make the keys to get through the doors just another random drop when you kill an enemy, and then the enemies just keep coming, but I'm pretty sure that would get boring after a while.

You could rig a random maze generator to make symmetrical or shaped dungeons that would look interesting on a map. The real trick would be putting doors in key places where the player must have passed enough dead-ends to put exactly the right amount of keys down those dead-ends (along with other treasures). And maybe some randomisable configurations that let you pass if you have the right tool or weapon (the weapon effectively being used as another dungeon key).

[ParadigmShifter]

Some people are incredibly consistent at beating Nethack though (I've never beaten it since it is so damn hard of course!).

That has had years of balance applied though I spose.

Similar thing applies to other "random" games like FTL on PC (which is also excellent)... they are so well balanced and people get so good at them they can beat it like 95%+ of the time on hardest difficulty. (FTL is not too bad on normal difficulty it is brutal on hard difficulty though).

Note those are different to "Roguelites" which generally make you get a bit stronger to face challenges easier as you play it more e.g. Hades (which is also very very good).

EDIT: Speccy could probs do a version of FTL justice there's not much graphically going on and you don't really need a mouse - you can control most of it from keyboard (and you can pause the game if you need precise inputs).

[wub]

There’s also Master of Magic, although I can’t remember if it’s randomly generated dungeons and the playing area is absolutely tiny

I loved Master of Magic BITD! The dungeon isn't randomly generated but it has a really nice 'real-time' feel that made it very compelling. I still play it on the Sam occasionally, and I still haven't completed it!

[akeley]

I wanted to reply but then remembered my old post on the subject...

I've spent nearly 3 decades playing normal games. I recall briefly toying with Rogue on ZX in the 90s, it was kind of addictive but I couldn't understand what it's all about and why am I not allowed to save? This was pre-internet so there was not much help around and anyway I looked forward to all the other swanky games pouring in (Amiga and DOS were at their prime then).

Then somewhere around 2012 I started to get bored of replaying the same template over and over, was looking for something different and somehow got slowly sucked into the roguelike world. First with some light JRLs, then Nethack, Crawl and then the other major RLs.

It was like taking the red pill. I've realized how stuck-up a lot of game design is and how we are not actually playing many of the games, just sort of coasting on autopilot, with minimal effort involved. My gaming mindset has changed completely and for a long time I actually could not play anything else, because it just felt boring and trite. I've slowly recovered , but only partially. I used to love classic CRPGs and strategy games but now can only play some of them. And I started getting much more into genres like arcade shoot'em ups, which require some skill and effort. Old school 8/16 bit action games also count

Long story short, RLs are not for everybody, but are definitely worth a go and are extremely rewarding, just require a change of old mindset and approach to be undertsood and enjoyed.

Why aren't there many for ZX Spectrum is a good question, though I'm not sure whether the more complex ones would actually fit into 48kb. I think Amiga was the first micro after PC to receive a lot of ports of the core RLs.

Anybody who's interested in this genre is welcome to check ArchiveRL, my roguelike collection project: https://archive.org/details/ArchiveRL.7z

[Timmy]

To be honest, the real reason why we don't have many Roguelikes, is that we already have a lot of great Adventures and Dungeon Crawlers before a low quality game like Rogue came along.

Rogue which was released on the Spectrum in 1988(!), is just another dungeon crawler, or adventures that we already have since 1983.

Secondly, it's also not even good -- see Crash review -- and I agree with that review, because I've played it a while, and yes, every single run it ends with bad dungeon generation where you can't reach the stairs (or you died).

So it could just as well called a Dungeon Crawler clone, or an Oracle Cave clone, or countless others. At least those games were actually good.

And to be honest, games that were released in 1998 or after could be called Roguelike, but by then there really isn't any market for a 1983 genre with not much progression.

Another reason is that the term Roguelike has pivoted its meaning after 1988, and newer definitions will include a lot of turn based pseudo 3d non-procedural games as well. For example, Bard's Tale would now be called Roguelike in 2024. If you use newer definitions to retroactively cover Roguelikes, then we'd have a huge number of them.

I could probably name more reasons but I'll stop for now.

[ParadigmShifter]

I think the Berlin Interpretation should be used to classify Roguelikes for purity

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike#Key_features

I wouldn't call The Bards Tale a Roguelike since the map is always the same, just the encounters are different (don't know how random the encounters are).

Re: getting stuck in Rogue with no way to reach the stairs, does it not have searching for secret passages in that game? (NetHack does which is the game I am familiar with). In which case the exit is probably behind a secret door? Otherwise it's a bug of course. Dying a lot is a "feature" of Roguelikes of course You get better by playing the game more and learning from experience, not because your character gets more powerful as you go along like in most other games (you do get more powerful but so do the enemies so it is fairly well balanced).

[stupidget]

The excellent type-in, Forest of Long Shadows has a map that is randomly generated with each game. Would that count as Rogue-like?

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/2 ... ng_Shadows

[Timmy]

Re: getting stuck in Rogue with no way to reach the stairs, does it not have searching for secret passages in that game? (NetHack does which is the game I am familiar with). In which case the exit is probably behind a secret door? Otherwise it's a bug of course.

I played Nethack before Rogue, so I know to hold the search button in every square in Nethack. So I'm pretty sure this is a bug in Rogue.

Besides, Crash said this too in its review, so you'll need more proofs if you believe otherwise.

[firelord]

I always considered Rogue games something like single-player MUD games. Another definitions for me would be ASCII or 8-bit graphics look-from-top simple rpgs.

[dvduk]

I loved Master of Magic BITD! The dungeon isn't randomly generated but it has a really nice 'real-time' feel that made it very compelling. I still play it on the Sam occasionally, and I still haven't completed it!

This thread reminded me i've not played Maziacs for a long time - but I always wondered what the Maziacs where doing to the hero when they caught him....???!!

[akeley]

Rogue which was released on the Spectrum in 1988(!), is just another dungeon crawler, or adventures that we already have since 1983.

Secondly, it's also not even good -- see Crash review -- and I agree with that review, because I've played it a while, and yes, every single run it ends with bad dungeon generation where you can't reach the stairs (or you died).

So it could just as well called a Dungeon Crawler clone, or an Oracle Cave clone, or countless others. At least those games were actually good.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. There is a huge difference between "standard" dungeon crawler/CRPG and the roguelike genre, which is defined by interplay between procedural generation and permadeath.

Whether you like Rogue or not is subjective of course. It is the granddad and so much simpler than more advanced RLs, but it's a very clever game nonetheless and many people enjoy playing it in even modern times. I have played it bitd on the ZX and haven't encountered the stairs bug, but maybe it was some other version.

Another reason is that the term Roguelike has pivoted its meaning after 1988, and newer definitions will include a lot of turn based pseudo 3d non-procedural games as well. For example, Bard's Tale would now be called Roguelike in 2024. If you use newer definitions to retroactively cover Roguelikes, then we'd have a huge number of them.

This is also totally incorrect, seeing as the term "roguelite" has exploded in poularity only in recent years, and even so it still wouldn't cover a game like Bard's Tale since it doesn't include one of the two aforementioned key elements. You'd really have to stretch the Berlin Interpretation to include it, and if you did then you could go on and include Manic Miner and everything else too.

[Rorthron]

Google Books Ngram Viewer shows that the term "roguelike" was almost unheard of before 1989 and its usage only really accelerated from 2009, after the introduction of the Berlin Interpretation the year before. (There is a spike in frequency in the early 20th century, presumably in a sense unrelated to video games, The increase after 1989, though, is surely connected with video games.) So the idea that roguelikes only became popular after the Spectrum era has some support.

[akeley]

Google Books Ngram Viewer shows that the term "roguelike" was almost unheard of before 1989 and its usage only really accelerated from 2009, following the introduction of the Berlin Interpretation the year before. (There is a spike in frequency in the early 20th century, presumably in a sense unrelated to video games, The increase after 1989, though, is surely connected with video games.) So the idea that roguelikes only became popular after the Spectrum era has some support.

Obviously, roguelikes were always a niche genre, and the term was not set in stone in the Eighties. There were simply people who were fans of the original Rogue and so some of them created games like Rogue. The 5 "major" RLs (Rogue, Hack, Moria, Omega, Larn), which lay foundation for the future ones, all originated in this era.

Anyway, I'm not disputing whether these games became more popular after Sinclair's demise, and so that's why there aren't so many of them on our p latform (it might well be, though I think it has as much to do with different, open source and US-college centric culture, and HW specs maybe too) but Timmy's classification claims.