What happened to the permission slips?

[equinox]

It used to be possible to read the letter that someone had written, saying "yes, WorldOfSpectrum, you can publish my old games".
What happened to those letters, or permission slips?
I'm guessing possibly you hid them, because they were written for an older site, and SpectrumComputing isn't the same site (cough cough, "I think the site is great" says Amstrad dude)
Are they still stored somewhere? What's the story?

[Sokurah]

Like you mention, those permissions were given specifically to World Of Spectrum, so they don't apply here.

But for historic reasons, I think it would be nice if they were mirrored here though.

[AndyC]

I think even WoS eventually removed them as not everyone who gave permission necessarily was happy with it being public information. Ownership can be a bit of a grey area with some of these old titles and a developer saying "Yes I'm happy with you sharing my old games" may get them into issues if that's not necessarily entirely up to them.

[equinox]

Agreed, from historical perspective. However, having considered your comment, I'm guessing the problem is that if "we" (pardon royal pronoun) post this stuff that says SITE X can use it, that's implicitly saying "nobody else can" (exception proves the rule...)
In fact it's even worse. Suppose we have the written official blessings of Automata, Code Masters and Hi Tec (picking three at total random) saying yes, you can use our stuff. If I were a solicitor for any other company, I would say: look, clearly these people were *deliberately* infringing because they went out of their way to try to get permission from other companies. If they thought it was innocent, they would never have bothered.
...
This is about the time PeterJ deletes my thread and kicks my arse. Again

(question stands: I hope someone secretly kept them somewhere)

[PeterJ]

I only delete (and email you) your posts @equinox when you have been on the cider!

[equinox]

Suppose we have the written official blessings of ... Code Masters

this time I'm on the crack clearly

[PeterJ]

Downloads are always an area of worry. There are some downloads such as Ultimate and Elite (although I have tried to persuade Steve), which you would never allow. We make contact with developers and publishers as much as possible (with a focus on ones which still exist in some form). A recent one was a company who bought up lots of labels, and after we explained that our focus is preservation, and that we don't do advertising or sponsorship they were fine to let us continue hosting the files. Some companies also asked for messages to be added (for example, the late and great John Wilson).

Every download has a 'contact us' message if someone want them removed'

There are literally hundreds of download sites over the web full of downloads, most of which are jam full of advertising and denied titles.

A recent term which seems increasingly used is 'abandonware'. There is actually no such thing.

Many modern publishers also only want their files on itch.io so we have to be careful with those too.

I get requests for sponsorship of the site, which I decline because I think it's important that we don't become commercial or be seen to endorse a particular product, magazine, Kickstarter campaign, or service. Some people no longer reply to emails because their approach has been declined.

I don't ever want to do this, but the easy option is to remove all downloads.

[equinox]

I almost used the word "abandonware" (which I don't think is new at all -- it's something WoS used to try to set itself apart from -- I remember when Nintendo or Activision or somebody did a global sweep and tried to shut down every page that even mentioned stuff, even though those games were hidden on WoS).

I guess the three levels would be:
3. GIMME THE FILEZ! ROMZ! sites that collect stuff for purely piracy purposes, and don't even bother to curate properly.
2. People with genuine love and interest and nostalgia, who collect 'em so we can play stuff we haven't seen for 20 years.
1. Museums that try to get original copies and will never provide any file whatsoever.

Everybody has their place... all right, thanks very much for the explanations.

[8BitAG]

The permission responses quite often included lots of useful information, such as some comments about the games and their development, and usually email addresses. It was a shame that the decision was taken elsewhere not to share the key information from them (such as date obtained, scope of permission, interesting facts); especially as obtaining them was a community effort.

Although you could be charitable and say that the permission slips (and email addresses) were removed for privacy reasons, the timing of the initial "block" on access to them coincided with the split in the community and services like ZXDB & Spectrum Community being set up.

[equinox]

The permission responses quite often included lots of useful information, such as some comments about the games and their development, and usually email addresses. It was a shame that the decision was taken elsewhere not to share them; especially as obtaining them was a community effort.

Hmm, the "related material" (or whatever they call it) is generally a separate thing in Wos/SC/ZXDB? so maybe it could be parsed out, by somebody who has the time and interest. It should have been split out anyway, potentially. Although if it's part of one big e-mail then perhaps the best route would be just a pointer, "more company info here, in this permission slip".

Although you could be charitable and say that the permission slips (and email addresses) were removed for privacy reasons, the timing of the initial "block" on access to them coincided with the split in the community and services like ZXDB & Spectrum Community being set up.

Probably so. Although everything else was kept by everybody (screenshots etc.) so I think these really are different because they might have been seen to be tied to one site or domain. THE FORKING (does it have a name) was rather sad, but that's a while ago now, and so it went... we all on all sides have to deal with it.

[4thRock]

You can't post private communications (such as emails) on a public site. Especially now, with privacy regulations adopted in most countries.

[8BitAG]

You can't post private communications (such as emails) on a public site. Especially now, with privacy regulations adopted in most countries.

Yes, I would say that when I wrote responses to people who were requesting permission to include my games on WOS, many many years ago, I hadn't expected that those emails would've been displayed publicly (in full!) on the site. So that's definitely an issue, even without privacy regulations.

[equinox]

GDPR isn't retroactive.

It's good manners to obfuscate e-mail addresses now (due to spambots), and sure, the nature of the Internet has changed, so if the message is full of personal stuff, you might want to trim it down. But you can't go back and say "oh this is now suddenly illegal".

[AndyC]

GDPR isn't retroactive.

It's good manners to obfuscate e-mail addresses now (due to spambots), and sure, the nature of the Internet has changed, so if the message is full of personal stuff, you might want to trim it down. But you can't go back and say "oh this is now suddenly illegal".

Unfortunately it is. You can't get into trouble for having done it in the past, but you most certainly can if you continue to do so now that GDPR is in effect.

[equinox]

Unfortunately it is. You can't get into trouble for having done it in the past, but you most certainly can if you continue to do so now that GDPR is in effect.

Surely not if *they wrote it themselves*, with the understanding that it would be published. (That should be "positive opt-in"... Okay, I guess nobody kept the paperwork, so blah.)

Otherwise: what are the implications for all the old demos where we put our home addresses in the scrolltext? And maybe somebody else lives there now?

[PeterJ]

@equinox,

If they specifically gave permission that their email would be published it's fine, but only then.

We don't publish permission emails that we have obtained, only the text they sometimes ask us to add to downloads.

You maybe would be better asking WoS for these slips if you want them.

[AndyC]

Unfortunately it is. You can't get into trouble for having done it in the past, but you most certainly can if you continue to do so now that GDPR is in effect.

Surely not if *they wrote it themselves*, with the understanding that it would be published. (That should be "positive opt-in"... Okay, I guess nobody kept the paperwork, so blah.)

Otherwise: what are the implications for all the old demos where we put our home addresses in the scrolltext? And maybe somebody else lives there now?

The list of caveats is long and arduous and, in all honesty, mostly exempted by maintaining a risk log. In any case somebody has to complain first before it becomes a problem, you can't just get fined on a whim. I doubt re-publishing emails to WoS, that many authors didn't realise would be published, is safe ground to play on though.

[Einar Saukas]

ZXDB includes a table called "permissions" that stores all distribution permissions obtained from anyone. Each permission indicates the person or company that provided the permission, the exact site that received the permission (either Martijn's WoS only, Spectrum Computing only, or all free sites) and the scope of the permission (permission allowed for all owned titles, permission denied for all owned titles, permission allowed for certain titles only, etc).

All permissions originally obtained by Martijn's WoS are stored in this table, and we have been expanding it. Personally, whenever I contact authors, I always ask for permissions for all free sites (sites that don't make any profit just like Spectrum Computing, ZX Info, etc). Other times, authors contact Spectrum Computing directly to provide permission specifically to them. All these situations are properly stored in table "permissions".

This table is part of ZXDB distribution, so it's available for everyone. Spectrum Computing uses this table internally to help decide when certain files should be available for download.

However ZXDB does not store any text from the emails exchanged with authors about permissions. That's private communication. Years ago, I remember Veronika Megler showing surprise that all her previous emails were placed online at WoS... Perhaps that's the reason Martijn finally decided to remove all these texts from WoS and make them confidential. This happened long before ZXDB was created.

I don't have any of these emails (WoS wasn't sharing them since they were confidential) but it doesn't matter, since I wouldn't be able to include them into ZXDB anyway. But all permission information is stored in ZXDB, this is what matters.

[Ralf]

By the way all these permissions could be a rather weak evidence it it came to some real legal action.

You know, "is email a document?" thing is a bit grey area. If you have a bad luck, you can can encounter some judge or clerk
who would request a physical, signed paper, not some email sent 20 years ago from today unexisting address to another unexisting address.

Yes, there are some laws that say that email IS a document in some cases, but did they exist 20 years ago?

Or they could say that WOS actually didn't store "emails" but copies, not emails but just some text files on the server that
anybody could alter many times. From some website:

3. Section 5, of the ETO, provides the requirement for original form:

5. Requirement for original form.—(1) The requirement under any law for any document, record, information, communication or transaction to be presented or retained in its original form shall be deemed satisfied by presenting or retaining the same if:

And how can you be sure that some person who signed himself as John Doe who wrote email is the same John Doe who wrote game X in the 80s?
And does our John Doe actually owns some paper which says he owns copyrights to some game?

You can see how many problems it involves.

So my personal approach is - "Don't worry too much about copyrights, if someone asks you to remove some game just say sorry and remove it. It will be enough in 99,99% of cases"

[equinox]

ZXDB includes a table called "permissions" ...
...
However ZXDB does not store any text from the emails exchanged with authors about permissions. That's private communication. Years ago, I remember Veronika Megler showing surprise that all her previous emails were placed online at WoS... Perhaps that's the reason Martijn finally decided to remove all these texts from WoS and make them confidential. This happened long before ZXDB was created.
...
I don't have any of these emails (WoS wasn't sharing them since they were confidential) but it doesn't matter, since I wouldn't be able to include them into ZXDB anyway. But all permission information is stored in ZXDB, this is what matters.

Hmmm... bit of a pity, as the "letters" were the evidence for the permissions bit...

Anybody know the Nectarine demoscene radio? It's a stream that plays chiptunes, MODs, AYs, etc. I'm reminded of this, because there was a time when that site was torn down (the maintainer got annoyed and just destroyed it) and the community has been slowly piecing it back together, over years, based on archives and records and whatever -- there are still lots of songs that don't quite play properly because they were ripped from stream recordings, and sliced and diced based on time-marks, and it's not always perfect.

Anyway what you can grab from a public archive is the public stuff (for example, users' profiles, and information about songs, and possibly the history of user votes, if you are lucky). But the private stuff like internal user messages, and "favourites" lists, etc. was basically lost (they did seem to pull some of it, I don't know how -- but mostly lost). You'd think "this is good, this stuff should not be public". Anyway it has sucked trying to put Humpty-Dumpty together again. But you also learn the lesson about having an important data store owned by only one person, who might die, disappear, or just decide he hates you. (Oh yeah, we had our own trouble with RZX Archive recently too, as very sadly Daren died.)

I am happy that "our" database is now kept in an open and shareable way, and that we can get answers to questions like the above. Thanks for your work dude!

[Einar Saukas]

(Oh yeah, we had our own trouble with RZX Archive recently too, as very sadly Daren died.)

The entire content of RZX Archive was preserved inside ZXDB, with Daren's permission. He's properly credited about it in the ZXDB repository page. This way, Daren's legacy will continue to live forever.

I am happy that "our" database is now kept in an open and shareable way, and that we can get answers to questions like the above. Thanks for your work dude!

ZXDB is a collaborative effort. Thanks everyone!

[pavero]

(Oh yeah, we had our own trouble with RZX Archive recently too, as very sadly Daren died.)

I have complete backup of Daren's RZX Archive on my local drive. Only about 20 denied RZXs still missing.

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The domain rzxarchive.co.uk will probably expired in October 2022.
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